Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”.
- Thread starter SaparotRob
- Start date
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buffnut453
Captain
I just saw a video from "Cockpit Interviews"(?) interviewing a Tornado F3 pilot. He discussed simulated combat against various U.S. types. Of the F-15, he said something like
"Tactics? They just came straight on through. The only way to beat them was to cheat." They flew back and forth in a ravine hiding from radar, popping up to look around. They didn't know the ravine was off limits.
Well, the Tonka F3 was never designed to be a dogfighter because the RAF (again) failed to learn lessons from WW2 and built an interceptor solely designed to take on Russian bombers. However, the interview sounds accurate and triggered a memory.
I was at Cope Thunder in Alaska the first time the Brits took part. Knowing that the F3 couldn't compete with the F-15, the Tonkas stayed low and silent (no radar emissions, no comm emissions), relying on AWACS to track the incoming F-15 formation. Once the F-15s had overflown the Tonkas, the latter popped up behind them and promptly shot down all the F-15s in a matter of seconds for no losses. Hardly fair but, then again, who said air combat should be fair?
- Thread starter
- #843
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The pilot did say the F3 wasn't properly configured. They were carrying "Graf Zeppelin" wing tanks.
RAF got the F3 because UK could not afford a more capable aircraft and developed it from the GR bomber at low-ish cost. There was a certain rationale about the UKADR role and the F3 being a fair bomber killer with Skyflash.
There is no argument about carrying tanks, fact is the F15 fighters are awesome for their vintage and, even with no tanks an F3 is not in the same dynamic league.
Eng
There is no argument about carrying tanks, fact is the F15 fighters are awesome for their vintage and, even with no tanks an F3 is not in the same dynamic league.
Eng
buffnut453
Captain
The big fuel tanks were actually known as "Hindenburgs"...at least they were on the ground-pounding Tonka fleet.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 902
- Feb 16, 2013
Yet the development process yielded a less capable aircraft at considerably higher cost, than just buying F-15's to begin with.
Reminds me of the RAF Eurofighter procurement, as told to me by a Tornado crewman years ago (so take it with a grain of salt). The Typhoon was designed with an internal Bk-27 cannon, but the RAF didn't want the extra expenditure and maintenance costs of the gun, unfortunately the aircraft was off CofG without it. So they initiated a program to develop a ballast that would take the guns place. However, the development and installation of the ballast cost as much as the gun itself, so they abandoned the ballast program and just ordered aircraft with non-functional cannons.
UK military procurement is long and sad story, perhaps only bested by Canada
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- Thread starter
- #847
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I just like the Tornado. I like big tails and that I can't deny.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Yabut do you like flying Lego bricks?
- Thread starter
- #849
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
They got big tails?
Thumpalumpacus
Major
They way they stacked that plane, yeah.
"Not a pound for air to ground."
Is there ever anything on the ground (other than a jet turning up) hot enough to growl a Sidewinder?
Wes,
Believe it or not the F-15 actually came with air to ground capabilities when delivered new and Eagle units actually dropped ordanance. I started flying it in 1991, and the software was still there, although not used for it's intended mission. The "non MSIP (Multi Stage Improvement Program)" Eagles were all delivered with an Armament Control Panel (looks very similar to what the Phantom came with) and you could dial all sorts of bombs into it. The MSIP mods removed that panel and replaced it with a color MPCD (multi purpose color display) and it allowed for bombs initially, or until software mods needed space and that was pulled.
The AIM-9M would easily self track (lock on) to hot spots on the ground, the sun, flares, etc. It was an "all aspect" missile, with the ability to track and hit a fighter in idle in the face (hardest shot). The AIM-9X was a whole different animal and literally an exponential leap in capabilities.
Strafing was being introduced to the A-D community as I was leaving (didn't get to do it). The Strike Eagle guys had been doing it for awhile. And that's with an up canted gun just like in the Hornet.
Cheers,
Biff
When I worked for Eastern on the Redifon 727 sim at JFK, we had a tech rep from McDonnell Douglas Engineering who was responsible for the simulator/visual system interface. He had been yanked off F15 sim development work and exiled to Kennedy in retaliation for enraging some executive in the chain of command, and "not a pound..." was his mantra. Apparently the recent injection of former Douglas executives into the McDonnell hierarchy had generated a corrosive culture clash, which festered under the surface for decades and eventually contributed to the erosion of Boeing's culture of safety and quality after that merger.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
When you were at Eastern did you know "Barney" Rummel?
fubar57
General
I read that wrong at first so I shall refrain......no matter how hard I really, really want to
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
His given first name is Robert, but he quotes a date in 1964 when for some reason everyone started to call him "Barney."
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Did he have a hot wife and a best friend named Fred?
fubar57
General
MUST REFRAIN.......MUST REFRAIN.....MUST REFRAIN....
yosimitesam
Airman 1st Class
Winner.
