Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”.

[Glider]

You might be interested in this discussion over on the Secret Projects Forum about Type 42 development that ran between 2012 and last year.

Type 42 Batch 1 Hull Cut

I am trying to get to the truth behind the story about the Type 42 ending up with a hull shorter than the designers wanted. The sources that I have available are contradictory. Norman Friedman states that there is no indication that the Type 42 was shortened from the a preferred 434ft (the...

www.secretprojects.co.uk

Note the final para in post #28

"All in all its looking like story of the Type 42 being trimmed from 434ft is a myth. The Type 17 and its AAW variant and none of the early T42s during 1966 were ever that long and in fact grew from 385ft to 392ft. Had the final design kept the more compact superstructure layout with the armament 15ft further aft, I wonder if there would still have been a push to lengthen to 434ft in the Batch 3s?"

From what I have seen (and I don't pretend to have spent a huge amount of time on this). The first two batches were designed to their length to save costs. Now if you can say that this is a cut in the length, or they were built as designed, albeit to an incorrect length, is probably open to debate.

My guess is that in the design team there would have been people who knew that the design was too constricted and would have lobbied for a better outcome. Ship designers are highly trained, experienced and not the type of people who would have calmly taken instructions without making themselves heard. However they were overruled.

No one seems to deny that they needed lengthening and that the third batch was by some margin a better all round design.

An aside but I joined the RN in 1973 and everyone was very excited as there was a lot going on at the time. A number of new designs were coming on stream, Type 42, Type 82 Type 21, new Helicopters Sea King, Lynx, the possibility of the Harrier and new missiles notably the Sea Dart and the Seawolf.
We had a lecture from someone who was on the Type 42 design team and he explained some of the early thoughts about the design of the Type 42. It was a long time ago and I wish I could remember more of it, but the only thing that sticks was that when they were first bouncing ideas around someone thought about putting the ships exhausts the stern and not have a funnel. The idea being that it would give a smoother airflow over the ship and improve helicopter handling. Obviously this lasted about ten minutes and probably never made it to paper, but it was mentioned as an example showing that no idea was too silly.

 

[Barrett]

Not sure if it is the greatest myth busted but one of my favorites...

The Germans called the P-38 the Fork Tailed Devil.

I am years late (been sorting thru an accumulation of emails) but gotta add a Youbetcha to DerAdler.
Der Gabelschwanz Teufel was product of the Burbank PR shop, same as "Whistling Death" came out of the Stratford F4U shop...
NONE of the Luftwaffe pilots I knew had ever heard of The Gabelschwanz thing. In fact, some of them (Steinhoff, Stigler, etc) had flown in N Africa and snacked on 38s until the Americans learned how to fight with them--and maintain enough for operations.

 

[Ovod]

One or two myths concerning the Fairey Swordfish:

Swordfish sank a greater tonnage of Axis shipping than any other Allied aircraft during the war.

Fairey Swordfish - Wikipedia
Is there any evidence for this?

While there were never more than a total of 27 Swordfish aircraft stationed on the island at a time, the type succeeded in sinking an average of 50,000 tons of enemy shipping per month across a nine-month period.[24] During one record month, 98,000 tons of shipping were reportedly lost to the island's Swordfish-equipped strike force.

Fairey Swordfish - Wikipedia
Pretty sure this is a myth too. Impossible I'd say.

 

[Greg Boeser]

One or two myths concerning the Fairey Swordfish:

Fairey Swordfish - Wikipedia
Is there any evidence for this?


Fairey Swordfish - Wikipedia
Pretty sure this is a myth too. Impossible I'd say.

It's quoting a source from 1971, so it must be true. It was also known by the Germans as "der verdammte Papierdrachen".
You read it here, so it must be true.

 

[Ovod]

It's quoting a source from 1971, so it must be true. It was also known by the Germans as "der verdammte Papierdrachen".
You read it here, so it must be true.

Much of that Wikipedia article is sourced from the same book from 1971: Stott, Ian G. The Fairey Swordfish Mks. I-IV (Aircraft in Profile 212). Windsor, Berkshire, UK: Profile Publications, 1971.
The writer seemed to have taken some liberties when toting up the kill score of the aircraft. I'd like to see a list the names for all these ships sunk by the Swordfish but I have yet to see it.

Here's a list of nearly all the Japanese ships, military and merchant, sunk during WW2: https://www.history.navy.mil/resear...nese-naval-merchant-shipping-losses-wwii.html

It seems to me that a lot more Axis ships were sunk in the Pacific and Indian Ocean than in the Atlantic and Mediterranean and quite a lot of them were sunk by aircraft too. Question is which aircraft sunk which ships - in a lot of cases it isn't clear.

 

[Greg Boeser]

Is the total the tonnage claimed, or actual shipping tonnage lost? Looking at modern historical research, overclaiming was not limited to aircraft.
How many coasters were sunk and claimed as 2, 3, 10 times actual displacement?

 

[Ovod]

For the Swordfish? 450,000 tonnes of shipping sunk (mainly Italian) Is what Stott claims in his book. That would be quite a lot of the Italian merchant fleet sunk if true.
I did manage to find this list of Italian ships sunk - very few of them were by torpedo bombers. Axis merchants lost on the North Africa Route – 1941-1943

 

[Simon Thomas]

From "STRINGBAG The Fairey Swordfish at War", David Wragg, 2004:

Later in the war, No. 830 was to be reinforced with additional Swordfish, and later still a number of Albacores. At one time it became known as the Naval Air Squadron Malta, reaching a peak strength of twenty-seven aircraft, reinforced by a second Swordfish squadron, or parts of squadrons, as happened after the attack on Illustrious, and later Formidable. Malta-based naval aircraft sank an average of 50,000 tons of enemy shipping a month, hindering Italian efforts to keep Axis forces in North Africa supplied, and during one month managed to sink 98,000 tons ofAxis shipping. During 1942, Malta-based Swordfish and Albacores were to account for thirty ships in thirty-six night attacks for a cost of sixty-seven torpedoes and just three aircraft.​

"Malta-based naval aircraft" may not mean only Swordfish, as there were Albacores on Malta during this time. I don't know their numbers or what else was in anti-shipping service at Malta at the time. Possibly Beaufighters and/or Beauforts.

"Fairey Aircraft since 1915", Taylor, 1974, states (p249-250):

According to the records there were never more than 27 Swordfish on Malta, yet they sank an average of 50,000 tons of shipping every month during a period of nine months.​

I'd say the 50,000 tons per month is closer to being plausible rather than a myth.

 

[WARSPITER]

There is also the Vichy merchant vessels handed over to the Axis in the Med to consider. 645,000 tons of
shipping at the time. germany also had around 200,000 tons of merchant vessels in the med as of June 1940.

Add all those to the Italian units of 700,000 tons (around 400,000 used in the runs to North Africa) , and you
have a lot of targets for Malta based swordfish.

 

[MiTasol]

Is the total the tonnage claimed, or actual shipping tonnage lost? Looking at modern historical research, overclaiming was not limited to aircraft.
How many coasters were sunk and claimed as 2, 3, 10 times actual displacement?

Not wrong.

Greg P probably knew JD "Supe" Hoysington from AeroSport at Chino.

Supe often reminisced about his wartime duties on a USAAF crash boat based at Kiriwina in the Trobriand Islands in New Guinea. They were shot at and bombed etc many times by USAAF aircraft while on duty near to Japanese targets (they were sent out before the raids so they could pick up USAAF airmen who ditched near or en-route home from the targets). Often they would get the aircrafts tail number or other means of identification. They had to do regular runs to Milne Bay where the USAAF aircraft were based to pick up supplies and made a point of checking out the raid reports where they were always identified as Japanese (despite the whole top of the deck being painted as a US flag), always sunk or left burning and usually identified as a destroyer. Sometimes as a cruiser.

They were never hit by any bombs or gunfire.

 

[GrauGeist]

My Uncle's sub, the USS Grayling (SS-209), was attacked by a B-17 during the Battle of Midway and reported as an IJN Cruiser hit and rapidly sunk.

What really happened was the B-17 bracketed the sub and the Skipper ordered a crash dive.

So, no, a Japanese Cruiser was not hit and sunk and no, the sub was not damaged.

And I should add that the Grayling's crew was not impressed about the whole affair.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Axis merchant ship Losses to Air Action in Mediterranaean. Swordfish, Albacore, Beaufort and Wellington were the main torpedo force.
Enemy Shipping Loss Assessment Committee ESLAC: AWM66 109 Enemy controlled ships, excluding Hospital Ships, lost in Mediterranean. Appendix B, to end May 1943 for collated figures, July for individual ships.
RN History Italian Merchant ship losses, all theatres till 31 May 1943 then Med only till 8 Sept 1943, German Merchant ship losses, Mediterranean, note figures are for total period ending the month until becoming monthly in September 1943

The various figures do not of course reconcile.

Source	ESLAC	RN History	RN History	RN History	RN History
Flag	All	Italian	Italian	German	German
Month	GRT	no	GRT	no	GRT
Jun-40​	0​	1​	440​
Jul-40​	26813​	3​	11459​
Aug-40​	4798​	2​	4798​
Sep-40​	10192​	3​	10209​
Oct-40​	0​	0​	0​
Nov-40​	27​	1​	57​
Dec-40​	8437​	5​	8941​
Jan-41​	0​	0​	0​
Feb-41​	4957​	2​	106​
Mar-41​	0​	1​	7289​
Apr-41​	4706​	3​	12226​
May-41​	11599​	3​	11188​	1​	3950​
Jun-41​	13006​	3​	12278​
Jul-41​	8239​	5​	9985​
Aug-41​	35218​	11​	35196​
Sep-41​	29966​	7​	23279​	4​	12689​
Oct-41​	34604​	12​	29471​
Nov-41​	8618​	5​	8030​
Dec-41​	12021​	6​	12541​
Jan-42​	19506​	2​	18839​
Feb-42​	4115​	1​	319​
Mar-42​	6452​	1​	1086​
Apr-42​	0​	0​	0​
May-42​	0​	1​	6836​
Jun-42​	6837​	1​	6837​
Jul-42​	7164​	7​	9841​	5​	18934​
Aug-42​	20346​	4​	20346​
Sep-42​	22096​	8​	22262​
Oct-42​	26893​	11​	20142​
Nov-42​	51112​	21​	14061​
Dec-42​	27859​	14​	23669​	5​	9937​
Jan-43​	9426​	13​	27223​
Feb-43​	18825​	26​	32223​
Mar-43​	41296​	36​	41845​
Apr-43​	29641​	55​	52668​
May-43​	27334​	101​	58482​	28​	57700​
Jun-43​	0​	19​	31418​
Jul-43​	0​	24​	25827​
Aug-43​	0​	27​	32153​	4​	16637​
Sep-43​	0​	1​	61​	6​	15294​
Oct-43​	0​	0​	0​	6​	13646​
Nov-43​	0​	0​	0​	8​	10368​
Dec-43​	0​	0​	0​	9​	9970​
Jan-44​	0​	0​	0​	22​	12657​
Feb-44​	0​	0​	0​	28​	23045​
Mar-44​	0​	0​	0​	40​	48771​
Apr-44​	0​	0​	0​	14​	9930​
May-44​	0​	0​	0​	26​	27237​
Jun-44​	0​	0​	0​	19​	19998​
Jul-44​	0​	0​	0​	13​	60709​
Aug-44​	0​	0​	0​	26​	43595​
Sep-44​	0​	0​	0​	22​	64683​
Oct-44​	0​	0​	0​	8​	10392​
Nov-44​	0​	0​	0​	3​	367​
Dec-44​	0​	0​	0​	3​	187​
Jan-45​	0​	0​	0​	2​	7463​
Feb-45​	0​	0​	0​	5​	9008​
Mar-45​	0​	0​	0​	3​	4451​
Apr-45​	0​	0​	0​	2​	71​
1940​	50267​	15​	35904​	0​	0​
1941​	162934​	58​	161589​	5​	16639​
1942​	192380​	71​	144238​	10​	28871​
1943​	126522​	302​	301900​	61​	123615​
1944​	0​	0​	0​	224​	321571​
1945​	0​	0​	0​	12​	20993​
Total	532103​	446​	643631​	312​	511689​

ESLAC Italian ships in Mediterranean only, GRT

Month	Air &	Air	Air Attack &	Aircraft &	Air Bomb	Aircraft	Air Torpedo
Month	Navy	Attack	Grounded	Surface	& Torpedo	Torpedo	& Grounded
Jun-40​
Jul-40​						26813​
Aug-40​						1976​
Sep-40​
Oct-40​
Nov-40​
Dec-40​						8437​
Jan-41​
Feb-41​							4957​
Mar-41​						7289​
Apr-41​						4557​
May-41​						17879​
Jun-41​		12249​
Jul-41​
Aug-41​					6340​	19873​
Sep-41​		2261​
Oct-41​		4786​				26599​
Nov-41​		1019​
Dec-41​					10540​
Jan-42​						5741​
Feb-42​						12221​
Mar-42​
Apr-42​
May-42​
Jun-42​						6837​
Jul-42​				2480​		6339​
Aug-42​		1527​				8326​
Sep-42​		2826​				9501​
Oct-42​						18273​
Nov-42​		11905​				11299​
Dec-42​	6206​	6923​				13284​
Jan-43​					5022​	7561​
Feb-43​			3329​			25982​
Mar-43​		7625​
Apr-43​						7667​
May-43​
Jun-43​
Jul-43​		3779​			4573​	6442​
Total	6206​	54900​	3329​	2480​	26475​	252896​	4957​

When it comes to Warships in theory it was 100,000 tons of battleships at Taranto, 2 of which were repaired.
Swordfish from HMS Eagle had an interesting July 1940
5th sank destroyer Zeffiro, damaged Euro plus 1 merchant ship sunk, 1 damaged
10th sank destroyer Leone Pancaldo, (later raised)
20th sank destroyers Nebo and Ostro

And so on.

 

[pbehn]

Thats the funny thing about statistics. The better you are at sinking ships the fewer ships there are to sink. The last ship is the hardest to sink and when you have sunk it you become statistically useless at sinking ships.

 

[herman1rg]

There are always Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics

 

[EwenS]

While the first Beauforts arrived in the Med in Aug 1941 to partially re-equip 39 squadron, they initially used bombs for their anti-shipping work. It was early 1942 before they began to use torpedoes. The Wellington torpedo bombers didn't become operational until early 1942 following trials in Dec 1941. B-26 Marauders of 14 squadron joined the fray in Oct 1942 and used torpedoes for a few months in early 1943. Torbeaus finally arrived in mid-1943, but only 39 squadron seems to have used that weapon, before RPs arrived at the end of the year.

The Med anti-shipping campaign took in bombing missions by Wellingtons & Blenheims on ports as well as on ships at sea as well as minelaying work, including by Swordfish and Albacores.

 

[Snautzer01]

Thats the funny thing about statistics. The better you are at sinking ships the fewer ships there are to sink. The last ship is the hardest to sink and when you have sunk it you become statistically useless at sinking ships.

Unless they others are building ships loaning them or in the case of the then great Dutch merchant fleet went over to the British and or Allies.

Btw your point is right on the nose.

Statistics.. weird creatures i never understood. Could get the 2+2 feeling about it. I feel if it truly worked there would not be casinos.

 

[WARSPITER]

Unless they others are building ships loaning them or in the case of the then great Dutch merchant fleet went over to the British and or Allies.

Btw your point is right on the nose.

Statistics.. weird creatures i never understood. Could get the 2+2 feeling about it. I feel if it truly worked there would not be casinos.

And all that share market software you can buy would make us all billionaires.

 

[pbehn]

Unless they others are building ships loaning them or in the case of the then great Dutch merchant fleet went over to the British and or Allies.

Btw your point is right on the nose.

Statistics.. weird creatures i never understood. Could get the 2+2 feeling about it. I feel if it truly worked there would not be casinos.

It is only ever part of a picture, Swordfish were only one way of sinking ships anyway, my father in law was in submarines based in Malta for much of his war. The disposition of the Norwegian fleet was a big issue too, not only was it quite large itself, many of their ships were tankers.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

It is only ever part of a picture, Swordfish were only one way of sinking ships anyway, my father in law was in submarines based in Malta for much of his war. The disposition of the Norwegian fleet was a big issue too, not only was it quite large itself, many of their ships were tankers.

I found the claims for Swordfish to be very dubious so a few months ago I purchased this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Strangling-Axis-Mediterranean-Cambridge-Histories/dp/1108478212

It gives quite a complete accounting of Axis shipping sunk and as I suspected submarines were the largest contributors with almost half the total tonnage sunk. Aircraft were second with surface units in a distant third and mines in fourth. Of course mining's real value lies in constricting the freedom of movement of shipping. Similarly, surface units caused expensive cruisers to be added to convoy escort. All part of the friction of war.
It wasn't until March 1943 that aircraft finally displaced submarines as the prime ship killers which coincides with the collapse of the Axis position in North Africa.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I would also add that one of the first aviation books I remember reading was Ralph Barkers "Torpedo Bomber" followed by his "The Thousand Plan".