highest kill ratio

Bill I agree with the 100 plus given to the 8th AF alone, and then we have RCAF/RAF, 15th AF, etc............

JG 7 records are not as complete as one would hope nor are KG 54 when operating as a fighter and bomber unit with the jet

we need to get together my friend hopefully in June, my own dear Father had a quad-bypass several days ago and he looks and sounds like crap-ola. may have to go down south again before months end

For USN USMC fighters

The FM-2 credit to loss numbers were 422 to 13, or 32.46 to 1
The F6F-3, -3N, -5, -5N credit to loss numbers were 5163 to 270, or 19.12 to 1
The F4U-1, -1C, -1D, -2, -4, FG-1, -1D credit to loss numbers were 2140 to 189, or 11.32 to 1
The F4F-3, -4 credit to loss numbers were 905 to 178, or 5.08 to 1

Rich

Erich said:

Bill I agree with the 100 plus given to the 8th AF alone, and then we have RCAF/RAF, 15th AF, etc............

JG 7 records are not as complete as one would hope nor are KG 54 when operating as a fighter and bomber unit with the jet

we need to get together my friend hopefully in June, my own dear Father had a quad-bypass several days ago and he looks and sounds like crap-ola. may have to go down south again before months end

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E- you have all you can handle - the door is open and we have a lot of wine and 18 year old macallan

Hello
in Finnish Air Force service Brewster B-239 achieved 25:1 kill ratio in 1941-1944, acccepted claims : air-combat losses.

Juha

As Erich said if 100 Me-262s can be attributed to the 8th Air Force alone, it means that more than 100 Me-262s must had been lost in combat against the other air forces that had the Luftwaffe surrounded during the last months of the war; I have read claims from RAF pilots and VVS pilots which downed Me-262s.

I think Soren got it right the first time. The F15 has no losses in air to air. I think the same is said for the F16 as well. I think both of them have over 100 kills with no losses.

So, the loss rate doesn't exist for them because there are no air to air losses. Technically, they have no loss rate.

Lets us not forget that because 100 Me-262s were claimed shot down doesn't mean that many were actually shot down, it's probably lower as usual with all claims. But there's no doubt that 80 to 90% of all Me-262s shot down were so by the USAAF as it was predominantly these guys who met them, and shooting one down which was attempting to land or take off counted just as much as one hit at 30,000 ft.

I believe it most reasonable that around 100 Me-262 were lost in the air, with ~1,100 more being destroyed on the ground by various means.

drgondog said:

E- you have all you can handle - the door is open and we have a lot of wine and 18 year old macallan

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I am on my way!

It certainly appears that the FM2 was the kill/loss ratio champ in WW2. Nice surprise.

Soren said:

Lets us not forget that because 100 Me-262s were claimed shot down doesn't mean that many were actually shot down, it's probably lower as usual with all claims.

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Right claims and actual losses seldom agree, but in that case they were relatively close. I counted incident by incident in Foreman and Harvey's "Me 262 Combat Diary" around 150 aerial credits by Allied fighters v Me 262's, vast majority USAAF, large majority P-51, and around 120 Me-262's actually lost in those same combats. Allied claims in that theater and time period tended to be among the more accurate in WWII. Around a dozen USAAF fighters were certainly or pretty certainly lost to jets counting in the same book, but a number of other cases are possible. In a number of other cases the book just notes losses, to some cause not necesarily jets or necessarily air combat, that might correspond to jet claims. But it doesn't seem likely a large % of those were really due to jets, with losses to operational, AA, and air combat with LW piston fighters happening all the time also. The air combat outcomes of Me-262 v. USAAF fighters was clearly heavily in favor of the USAAF fighters, in the particular circumstances, whatever the exact ratio.

In general though, comparing raw claimed killed ratio's is of very limited meaning. It's only useful IMO to compare the relative success of fighters flown right alongside one another by the same or very similar air arm . So for example the fact that both F4U's and F6F's claimed around 15:1 v Japanese fighters in late 44-end of war is reasonable evidence that those two types didn't differ much in effectivness in fighter combat. But you can't directly compare those ratio's to say 8th AF 44-45 ones (the USAAF claims/credits would probably be more accurate) or USAAF ones in New Guinea in 1942 (quite inaccurate), and so on for numerous cases of all other air arms and situations.

Joe

Soren said:

Lets us not forget that because 100 Me-262s were claimed shot down doesn't mean that many were actually shot down, it's probably lower as usual with all claims. But there's no doubt that 80 to 90% of all Me-262s shot down were so by the USAAF as it was predominantly these guys who met them, and shooting one down which was attempting to land or take off counted just as much as one hit at 30,000 ft.

I believe it most reasonable that around 100 Me-262 were lost in the air, with ~1,100 more being destroyed on the ground by various means.

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Soren the numbers for the USAAF 8th AF were awards not claims but the general comment that awards process were still usually overstated - but I did see quite a few 'claimed destroyed' were reduced to 'probable or damaged'

Unfortunately Stormbirds werk number resource is offline at the moment.

I believe that is about the most comprehensive loss list for Me-262s out there.

R Leonard said:

For USN USMC fighters

The FM-2 credit to loss numbers were 422 to 13, or 32.46 to 1
The F6F-3, -3N, -5, -5N credit to loss numbers were 5163 to 270, or 19.12 to 1
The F4U-1, -1C, -1D, -2, -4, FG-1, -1D credit to loss numbers were 2140 to 189, or 11.32 to 1
The F4F-3, -4 credit to loss numbers were 905 to 178, or 5.08 to 1

Rich

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OK, that makes no sense at all. The FM-2 was just a late-model F4F with a different manufacturer designation, should not be listed as a seperate type.

I've heard the Finnish Buffaloes edge out the Hellcat, but I've never heard the Buffalo's ratio when the kill/loss ratio for Buffaloes in the Pacific is factored into the total.

88l71 said:

OK, that makes no sense at all. The FM-2 was just a late-model F4F with a different manufacturer designation, should not be listed as a seperate type.

I've heard the Finnish Buffaloes edge out the Hellcat, but I've never heard the Buffalo's ratio when the kill/loss ratio for Buffaloes in the Pacific is factored into the total.

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It is about 5:1.

The US Navy kept track of the FM-2 results separately from the F4F results. Evidently they felt there was sufficient difference between the types to do so. My view, regardless of the intervening years, is that if that is the way the practitioners of the time chose to keep their statistics, then so be it. Not my job to question their process. One could, of course, complain to the USN that they keep their stats wrong, but I seriously doubt the response would be much more that a polite, "Thank you for your interest in Naval Aviation history."

As an aside, my father flew just about every fighter in the USN inventory back then, and then some, about 86% of his wartime hours, his 12/41 through 8/45 fighter hours were:

F4F-3 = 30.9
F4F-4 = 383.6
F6F-3 = 178.6
F6F-5 = 14.6
F7F-2N = 1.0
F4U-1/1D = 49.1
F4U-1C = 4.0
F4U-4 = 5.3
F3A-1 = 2.4
FM-1 = 25.1
FM-2 = 60.4
FR-1 = 3.3
P-40E = 0.7
A6M2 = 4.6
A6M5 = 4.9

When in conversation, referring to "Wildcats" he meant F4F's. He aways referred to FM-2's as "FM's;" just as "Yorktown" meant CV-5 and the other one was always referred to as "CV-10".

And to forestall a question, the USN had no need to track FM-1 (which was much more like an F4F than the FM-2) statistics as there were no scores for FM-1 pilots. Not to say FM-1 drivers did not see any action, they did, they simply did not see air-to-air action. A couple of the CVEs involved in the Tarawa invasion carried mixed F4F-4/FM-1 in their VC Rons.

Rich

USN might have kept seperate statistics, and pilots might have referred to them by different names, but for purposes of this discussion, the F4F and FM2 should be grouped together. The FM2 is just an improved variant of the basic Wildcat design, made by another manufacturer.
Otherwise we have to split up the 109s, the Spitfires, the FW's etc.
Different story if there is a major redesign, like Typhoon to Tempest, or FW190 to Ta152.

USN might have kept seperate statistics, and pilots might have referred to them by different names, but for purposes of this discussion, the F4F and FM2 should be grouped together. The FM2 is just an improved variant of the basic Wildcat design, made by another manufacturer.

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Says, who? You? I don't recall voting on who decides what in this thread. There were no ground rules laid out except the basic question regarding, if I may quote:

"what is the highest kill ratio ever
" i will assumed either p-51 or hellcat
"what is that ratio"

The USN did not differentiate in its reporting the various stripes of cats, if you will, lumping F4F-3's and F4F-4's into the same count. One might argue that if you are looking for sincere differences between types then there is a larger difference between the F4F-3's and -4's than between -4's and FM-2's. The was also no differentiation between F6F-3's and F6F-5's, not between F4U-1, 1D, -2, -4 and even the FG-1 and -1D, all are simply noted as F4U/FG. One would have to research the complements of the squadrons in question in order to determine which was which, a rather thankless task especially when some squadrons were mixed F4U and FG.

Your pronouncement about what is cogent and applicable may work for you, and even others, but in the context of the official service record is, not to cause offense, and just in my opinion, somewhat presumptuous. I suggest you write the USN and get it straightened out to your satisfaction. I could supply you with an address if you wish.

Rich

Rich, What a fascinating resume for your father shows up in his fighter hours. It must be(or must have been) quite an experience talking to him about it. I once spent quite a bit of time with Jim Swope. I bet they knew one another.

claidemore said:

Otherwise we have to split up the 109s, the Spitfires, the FW's etc.

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Perhaps, but OTOH if you don't split up 109 or Spitfire by model or period, you're not only talking a range of pretty different a/c technically within each general subheadings ('Spitfire' or '109'), but you are also equating claims by Spits in say 1941 over France that were perhaps 5:1 overstatements of actual German losses, with claims in 1944-45 that were much closer to the truth. Similarly for 109 you'd be equating relatively accurate 1941 East Front claims with several:1 overstatements ca. 1944-45. There is or might be some official ratio for that whole series of a/c as a trivia fact, but it has hardly any real world meaning. Of course the same factors (varying claim accuracy, varying type of opponents etc) make comparison of claimed kill ratio's between types questionable in many cases, but the longer period of time and wider variation of circumstances you cover for one 'type', the more those factors make the numbers *internally* inconsistent even for that one 'type'.

Joe

renrich said:

Rich, What a fascinating resume for your father shows up in his fighter hours. It must be(or must have been) quite an experience talking to him about it. I once spent quite a bit of time with Jim Swope. I bet they knew one another.

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He got around a bit, Gilberts Raid, Lae-Salamaua Raid, Tulagi Raid (first two of his six total credits), Coral Sea, Midway, and Solomons are where he flew combat; all in F4F-3's and -4's. I knid of shorted him on F4F-3 hours, VF-42 became a fighter squadron in March 1941, prior to that it was VS-41 a SBU squadron aboard Ranger. He went into VS-31 in January '41, his first squadron assignment after earning his wings in Nov '40, and just in time for the change. With the new designation they received shiny new F4F-3's. Dad's first log book went down on Yorktown, so the only F4F-3 hours I can report are the ones they (the VF-42 types) could reconstruct after they got back to MCAS Ewa after Midway. So, the F4F-3 hours only account for the period from 1 May 42 to squadron's arrival at Ewa after Coral Sea. Actually, as of 30 April 42 he had accumulated 635.3 hours which appears on a squadron report to ComAirBatFor of that date. How many of those were in F4F-3, who knows.

Oh, yeah, he knew Jim, Swope, they were in VF-11 together on Guadalcanal during the Solomon's campaign. Don't have many pics from the time in the Solomons, but I do have some from when the squadron was at NAS Maui. See below. Last time I remember seeing Jim Swope was at Charlie Stimpson's place in California, but that was a long, long, time ago. Didn't he go into the mining/prospecting business?

First picture is (L- R) Leonard, Vogel, Swope, Gaston examining a target sleeve at NAS Maui.

Second picture is (L- R) Swope, Maxwell, White at an elbow bending at the von Tempsky ranch on Maui.

Third picture is everyone at the von Tempsky's that particular date (L- R all at once, not not by rows) Quady, Johnson (hand on head), Cady, Leonard, Hiebert, Graber, Ogilvie, Vogel, Maxwell, Gaston, Stimpson, Flynn, Fenton, Cooke, Flath, HS White, Gilbert, Swope, Holberton, Ricker, Slagle, Cary.

Fourth picture is (L- R) Ricker, Cady, Flynn, Fenton, Stimpson, Ogilvie, Swope (boys will be boys, don't know who supplied the wings behind Fenton) at the von Tempsky's

Fifth is a picture of the squadron officers taken on Maui, dated 29 Jan 43. L- R First row - Rickabaugh, Ward, Stone, Flynn; Second Row - Wesley, Quady, Cady, CM White, Fenton, Vogel, Leonard, Hiebert; Third row - Parker, Cooke, HS White, Maxwell, Graham, Swope, Slagle, Graber, Johnson, Gilbert; Fourth row - Dayhoff, Ricker, Stimpson, Holberton, Cary, Ramsey, Ogilive, Flath.

Last picture is VF-11 pilots taken near the end of the Solomons tour in April 43. L- R seated/crouched - Cary, Gilbert, Schild, Wesley, Ramsey, HS White, Copolla, Jones; L - R standing - Parker, Hiebert, Holberton, Leonard, Ogilvie, Flath, Wall, Ivie, Gaston, Cady, Work, Martin, Cooke, CM White, Stimpson, Swope, Vogel, Masoner, Quady, Hubler, Pressler, Hubbard, Pimentel, Johnson, Viall.

Squadron group photos from NAS Maui and Guadalcanal official USN; all the rest from my personal collection.

Rich