History according to random people...

[GrauGeist]

Lake's Argonaut was built in 1897, made of steel.

Hunley's sub was built in 1863, made of steel.

Bourgeois' Plongeur was built in 1863, made of steel.

Nordenfelt built several Nordenfelt-class subs in 1886-87, made of steel.

More built by Waddington, Peral, Zede/Krebs and Holland all before 1897.

So what exactly did Lake invent?

 

[stona]

Going to write this from memory so.... in any case that Revolutionary war sub was a one-man suc called the Turtle. It was fitted with an external mine which would be attached to the British ship's hull via a screw-type device operated within the Turtle's hull. Unfortunately for the Turtle the British ships copper-plated hull proved impervious to the screw and the mine could not be attached

I think that's the one. I have a vague recollection of seeing a documentary in which some brave soul made a replica of the craft. Unfortunately my memory is a bit hazy, but one of the principal problems was the inability of the occupant to actually steer the craft in any meaningful way.
I think the conclusion was that the Americans did indeed launch the attack on HMS Eagle, but that it was almost impossible that the 'submarine' actually reached a British ship.
I'm not sure that the copper theory holds water. 1776 was very early for any RN vessel to be routinely copper bottomed, certainly for a third rater like HMS Eagle. The copper sheet was very thin which makes one wonder what kind of drill was used. I think it more likely that the submarine never managed to navigate to the target, but we'll probably never know for sure.
Cheers
Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

Steve, the Turtle was propelled by crank-driven screws.

Getting it out and into position would have been an exhausting, super-human task because of the hand-cranked screws that gave it forward motion, steerage and depth, let alone being able to drive the (yet another) screw to drill into into the oak hull (nevermind copper, oak is a bastard to work with) to secure the charge.

It is documented that the Turtle made a valiant attempt, but it just didn't go as well as they had imagined when this project was started.

 

[Graeme]

Read somewhere that the nuclear-powered USS Nautilus was the first submarine. Anything before it was a "submersible".

True or false??

 

[Shortround6]

Depends on the definition of submarine and submersible. How many hours or how far can the craft in question stay under water or travel underwater.

 

[mikewint]

The American submarine Turtle was built in Connecticut with the direct approval of General George Washington by David Bushnell an underwater explosives expert and inventor.
The Turtle was named so because of its shape, like two turtle shells mated together. It measured just three feet wide, 10 feet long and 6 feet tall. It could accommodate one man. Navigation was via a small rudder and propulsion, up/down and forward/backward, via two hand-cranked propellers. It remained water-tight by covering the whole vehicle, mainly built out of oak, in hot tar and running tight steel bands around it.
The little sub dived by allowing water to pour into a bilge tank at the bottom of the vessel, and it could surface via pumping out that water via a hand-cranked screw pump. In case of an emergency, such as a crack occurring in the boat's hull, there was 200lbs of lead that could be released, which would allow the sub to shoot back up to the surface. There was only enough air inside Turtle for one crewman to survive for 30 minutes.
There was a series of glass port holes on the top of the Turtle where its hatch met its hull. These provided light during daytime operations and a very basic view for navigational purposes. Since she would mainly operate at night, and a flame would use oxygen, internal illumination was provided by a cork that was covered in bioluminescent fungus.
On 7 September 1776, Sergeant Ezra Lee, one of three volunteers, slowly fought his way toward the HMS Eagle, which was moored south of Manhattan Island, after being towed out a ways from shore by row boats, Lee's progress was almost non-existent until the current began carrying him toward his objective. Once within clear view of HMS Eagle, he slowly submerged and crept underneath the big ship's stern, towards its rudder area. Here begun his attempt to drill into the Eagle so that the explosive package could be attached. Lee, however, was unable to break through what seemed like an impenetrable metal barrier (later it was thought that this was the iron plating around the ship's rudder hinge system). He then tried to submerge directly underneath the Eagle but the clumsy little sub had issues with staying in one place under the big ship's curved hull and fight the currents from the river and tide.
Lee eventually gave up on the attack, and made his way back out into the Hudson channel. Lee stated that he was spotted by the British as he left, and that multiple teams of sailors rowed out to investigate the strange object in the water. Lee then released the explosive charge, which was an elaborate timed device that used a fragile flintlock ignition system, to distract the search teams. The teams gave up long before the charge went off, which Lee said resulted in a massive explosion sending water high into the air.
Another attempt was made on October 5th, when Sergeant Lee attempted to attach a similar charge to a British Frigate also anchored off of Manhattan. He claimed that he was spotted on his approach to the ship so he aborted the mission. A few days later the Turtle was sunk as it sat atop its tender vessel near New Jersey. The British saw it and engaged it without a fight, blowing it to bits, although Bushnell claimed he salvaged parts of it.

 

[Gnomey]

 

[gumbyk]

Andy, I do like the fact that you guys have a "Prime Minister" instead of a President. Your current one, I think is Stephen Harper who is basically a more polite version of George Bush with nicer hair. He probably won't last long - and best of all you have a system where you can bring down governments you don't like.

You guys could have had that too, but you threw it out after some petty squabble (Something to do with tea, I think).
Guv'na General is the one with that sort of power, and AFAIK, its only ever been used in Australia (which is sort of becoming a mini-USA).

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Politics...

 

[Wildcat]

Australia (which is sort of becoming a mini-USA).

We are? In what ways?

 

[Graeme]

Depends on the definition of submarine and submersible. How many hours or how far can the craft in question stay under water or travel underwater.

Thanks mate. So the definition depends on endurance...

 

[T Bolt]

I thought the first submarine was invented my a guy named Nemo. They made a movie about it didn't they? Of was that about a striped fish?

 

[herman1rg]

From the news of 2026.
"USA President Donald Trump today agreed to a law repealing the limit on two Presidential terms for any single person and agreed to become President for life"

 

[mikewint]

Meanwhile back at the ranch and more on topic. It is always good to define one's terms:
A submarine is a watercraft capable of independent operation underwater. It differs from a submersible, which has more limited underwater capability. In today's terminology submarine most commonly refers to a large, crewed, autonomous vessel.

A submersible is a small vehicle designed to operate underwater. The term submersible is often used to differentiate from other underwater vehicles known as submarines, in that a submarine is a fully autonomous craft, capable of renewing its own power and breathing air, whereas a submersible is usually supported by a surface vessel, platform, shore team or sometimes a larger submarine.
Apart from size, the main technical difference between a "submersible" and a "submarine" is that submersibles are not fully autonomous and may rely on a support facility or vessel for replenishment of power and breathing gases. Submersibles typically have shorter range, and operate primarily underwater, as most have little function at the surface.
The key here IMHO is the ability to operate independently thus both the Hunley and Turtle were Submarines

 

[gumbyk]

We are? In what ways?

Politics...

 

[GrauGeist]

Well...here we go again...

There was an article about an abandoned sub in Panama, on San Telmo Island, built by Julius Krohl in the 1860's. It's been there for about 145 years, being exposed by low tides, but the article make it sound all mysterious and a startling discovery but actually goes into some details about the sub (even though the article looks like it was written by a 7th grader).

While it was a somewhat interesting article, it turns out that the reader comments is where all the information was!

Paul I call bulls**t on this submarine is only invented second world war

Samuel There were no submarines 145 years ago
Lisa There were submarines used (or at least built and proposed) during the American Revolution. Research "The Turtle"
Stephen You're correct Lisa , there were , and I think I'm right in saying , it was on the confederates side , mostly made of timber and sealed with pitch / tar
Lisa Stephen umm, I hope you are being sarcastic. Revolutionary War late 1700s. Not Civil War in the mid 1800s However the confederates did have a sub named The Hunley.
Garette Hahaha. They just raised the Hunley a few years ago and laid the soldiers remains to rest. They were the last civil war soldiers to be laid to rest. The union also had a submarine. You should probably pick up a history book once in a while.

Achilleas There were submarines 145 years ago?

Terry We didnt have submarines 145 years ago

Howard 145 years rubbish
Marshal Do some research,it's not rubbish.there were subs during the civil war.
Kirk Not built like this smh

Lance Sorry it's a hoax

Francisco So were there subs before ww1?

Graham bulls**t!

Diwa 145 years ago?

Todd Submarines in 1871? I doubt it.
Jason Go back to school then subs were around over two millenia by then the first sub was made in 1620.
Brian Know your own Civil War

And in case anyone's wondering, here's Krohl's wreck, beached on San Telmo:

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I just want to shake my head.

Our education system at it's finest.

 

[pbehn]

I just want to shake my head.

Our education system at it's finest.

On radio today, discussing the last West Ham match at Upton Park in London. "During the war it was hit by a "doodle bug" V1 rocket. I remember Stirling Moss talking about the "doodle bug", they were unmanned rockets that weaved about so quickly they were impossible to shoot down.

Apart from the complete BS about the V1 which didn't weave anywhere and could be shot down, the plonker decides to involve a legend of motor racing to give it credibility. Moss was born in 1929 and not one to make stupid statements, while our wonderful broadcasters are supposed to have degrees in English and journalism. I am starting to get the feeling that as the last people to live through it pass away, it is becoming a free for all for anyone to say the first thing that comes into their head.

 

[GrauGeist]

I just want to shake my head.

Our education system at it's finest.

Sadly, nearly half the commenters on that submarine article are from other parts of the world...

We're all doomed!

 

[Old Wizard]