Hurricane vs.Bf-110

[Vincenzo]

tommorrow i take list of squadrons and airbase so crossed, after we know what squadron in what field for many days

 

[Juha]

Hello Vincenzo
to easy your job
sector airfields were all FC Stations, also at least almost all fighter airfields which had numerous sqns listed. Those mentioned as naval air stations were not. Also at least most of satellites were not FC Stations, system for them worked so that a sqn usually flew in the morning from a sector airfield to the satellite, operated there for a day with a detachment from the sector airfield doing the refuelling and rearming if necessary and in the evening the sqn returned to the sector airfield, where normal maintenance etc was done during the night.

Juha

 

[Hop]

No, there were dozens of other fighter stations.

Middle Wallop, Warmwell, Exeter, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Coltishall, Wick, Dyce, Montrose, Kenley etc. Should I go on? None of them on that list of proposed 100-octane receiving stations as of December 1939., however.

How many of those were fighter stations in December 1939 when the instructions were issued?

Middle Wallop wasn't opened until 1940. Warmwell was home to No 10 Air Observers School. Exeter was home to some research flights from the RAE. Kirton in Lindsey didn't open until 1940. Coltishall didn't open until 1940, etc.

The point remains in 1939 they listed all the active Spitfire and Hurricane airfields as requiring switchover to 100 octane, and then listed ALL the non active stations as well.

Are you seriously suggesting, based on a website, that the RAF had only 25 Fighter Squadrons in Britain?

No. 25 Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons. The memo does say, after all:

regarding the issue of 100 Octane fuel for use in Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft in this Command.

That's all they were discussing. Spits and Hurris.

Lets see, thats 4-500 fighters at best, based on establishement (16 or 20). They lost 450 fighters in France alone... which either means that they sent ALL the fighters in France and lost all of them.

Ridiculus, isn't it?

Yes, it would be. But the fighters in France were already in France and therefore not in Britain.

But that's what you are suggesting, when you are claiming you are listing all Fighter stations and Squadrons. Based on a website (and one rather hastily put together, if I may add).

Hastily put together? It's been there at least 6 years, and is pretty comprehensive.

Of course, if you can find another Spitfire or Hurricane squadron in the UK as of 7th December 1939 please add it. I don't think there are any missing, though.

Denis Richards in his official history of the RAF says there were 22 Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons, 35 fighter squadrons in total, at the start of the war. I'm not sure if that includes those sent to France.

By December 1939 another 18 fighter squadrons had been added to the RAF, but they were mostly equipped with Blenheims and Battles.

No, you have 25 Squadron's station listed. 16+2 of these were eligible for 100 octane fuel.

Based on a plan from 9 months earlier, that was due to come in to effect 10 months later.

During the Battle of Britain, there were around 60 Squadrons in combat, were there not?

I believe there were about 45 Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons at the start of the battle.

Well, it would hardly make sense when wanting to equip 'all' fighter stations - save of course for Middle Wallop, Warmwell, Exeter, Kirton-in-Lindsey, Coltishall, Wick, Dyce, Montrose, Kenley and a couple of dozen others - and then go listing them one by one, would it?

It makes perfect sense to list all the stations, especially when they fall in to two groups, those with squadrons and those that might have squadrons in future.

Why, after more than 4 years, has he yet to post anything to back his claims up?
Probably because in the last four years you have never actually asked him to do so, you only keep spreading your accusations behind his back..

The original post was made at Butch's board in 2004. It was resurrected in 2007 with a request for more information. The author last posted on the board in early 2008.

But I'm not accusing Pips of anything other than misunderstanding something he says he chanced upon whilst researching another topic. I think it's you who's attaching far too much significance to what "pipspriller" wrote.

Curiously, when the RAF decided to convert the 2nd TAF Spitfires to 150 grade fuel - with about 1000 aircraft (but it appears that it only effected about 500 Spitfires in it, ie. much fighters less than what FC had in 1940 - they estimated the avarage monthly consumption as 20 000 tons. Per month.

Where does it say they only converted Spitfires? The one thing logistics people do not like is separate types of fuel. Even if some aircraft were getting little benefit, it makes sense to standardise on one type of aviation fuel, especially when supplying units in the field.

Now, you are telling us that some 1000+ fighters could do with 20 000 tons for 3 months in 1940, but oddly enough, in 1945, 500 fighters required the same amount for a single month...?

2nd TAF flew 90,000 sorties in 1945 (to the end of the war). That's about 22,000 a month, for perhaps 0.9 tons of fuel per sortie.

We've already seen FC flew about 50,000 sorties in the period Wood and Demspter say they used 22,000 tons. That's about 0.44 tons per sortie.

The maximum fuel you could get in a BoB Hurricane or Spitfire was just over 600 lbs. A 1945 Spitfire IX could take up to 1,150 lbs internally, another 650 lbs in a drop tank. A Mosquito FB VI took over 3,100 lbs internally, up to 1,500 lbs externally, and had an option for an extended range tank as well.

So could the 2nd TAF be using twice as much fuel per sortie as Spitfires and Hurricanes in the summer of 1940? Easily. Bigger, heavier, thirstier planes and the widespread use of drop tanks increase fuel consumption dramatically.

Well he never actually stated it was a direct quote, I think it was pretty clear for everyone at the time that he was summerizing the contents of the documents he found.

Thank you. That's what I've been saying all along, whilst you have claimed he was "quoting". He wasn't, he was giving us his understanding of what he'd seen.

 

[Vincenzo]

this is the list with all the fields, for all FC squadrons (63+2 of FAA)
Stations/Squadrons When used Days (max 114)
RAF Acklington. Ever 114
RAF Dyce. 31/8-11/10 42
RAF Turnhouse. Ever but 27/8 and 20/7 112
RAF Usworth. Ever but 1/9-7/9 107
RAF Wick. Until 1/9 53
RAF Catterick. Ever but 26 and 27/7 112
RAF Drem. Ever 114
RAF Grangemouth. Until 1/9 54
RAF Kirkwall. Never 0
RAF Sumburgh. 17/7-17/9 63
RAF Church Fenton. Until 22/10 105
RAF Digby. Ever 114
RAF Duxford. Ever 114
RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey. Ever 114
RAF Wittering. Ever 114
RAF Coltishall. Ever 114
RAF Leconfield. Ever 114
RAF Tern Hill. Never 0
RAF Filton. From 26/9 36
RAF Middle Wallop. Ever 114
RAF Boscombe Down. From 14/8 79
RAF Colerne. Never 0
RAF Exeter. Ever 114
RAF Pembrey. Ever 114
RAF Roborough. From 1/8 92
RAF St Eval. Ever but 13/8 and 10/9 112
RAF Warmwell. From 12/7 112
RAF Biggin Hill. Ever 114
RAF Debden. Ever 114
RAF Hornchurch. Ever 114
RAF Kenley. Ever 114
RAF Northolt. Ever 114
RAF North Weald. Ever 114
RAF Tangmere. Ever 114
RAF Croydon. Ever but 19/8-31/8 101
RAF Detling. Never 0
RAF Eastchurch Never but 12 and 13/8 2
RAF Ford. From 12/9 50
RAF Gosport. Never 0
RAF Gravesend. Until 29/10 but 10/9 111
RAF Hawkinge Never but 10/7 1
RAF Hendon. 5/9-25/9 21
RAF Lee on Solent. Never 0
RAF Lympne Never 0
RAF Manston Until 21/8 43
RAF Martlesham. Ever but 1-4/9 110
RAF Rochford. Until 23/7, the 27/8 and from 29/10 18
RAF Stapleford. From 29/8 64
RAF Thorney Island. Never 0
RAF Westhampnett. From 31/7 93
RAF West Malling. 12/7-20/7 and from 30/10 11
Castletown Ever but 1/9 and 14-17/9 109
Fowlmere Until 29/10 but 23/7 111
Collyweston Until 11/9 64
Wellingore Ever 114
Matlask From 30/10 2
Castle Camps From 3/9 59
Sealand Never but 11 and 12/7 2
Prestwick From 21/7 103
Gatwick From 24/10 (D from 18/9) 8
Redhill From 12/9 50
Skitten 13/10-23/10 11
Chibolton From 30/9 32
Aldergrove From 20/7 104
Speke From 26/9 36
Hatson Until 9/10 92 (FAA Squadron under FC)
Worthy Down Until 5/9 58 (FAA Squadron under FC)


p.s. all FC squadrons so also blenheim, gladiator, defiant, the FAA one was on gladiator->martlet and other one on fulmar

 

[Vincenzo]

We have 59 fields used from FC (not counted the 0 days). of this 41 with almost a squadron for almost 58 days

 

[Vincenzo]

Tab for only spit and hurry squadrons (54):
Stations/Squadrons When used Days (max 114)
RAF Acklington. Ever 114
RAF Dyce. 31/8-11/10 42
RAF Turnhouse. Ever but 27/8 and 20/7 112
RAF Usworth. Ever but 1/9-7/9 107
RAF Wick. Until 1/9 53
RAF Catterick. Ever but 26 and 27/7 112
RAF Drem. Ever 114
RAF Grangemouth. Until 1/9 54
RAF Sumburgh. 17/7-17/9 63
RAF Church Fenton. Until 22/10 105
RAF Digby. Ever 114
RAF Duxford. Ever 114
RAF Kirton-in-Lindsey. Ever 114
RAF Wittering. Ever 114
RAF Coltishall. Ever 114
RAF Leconfield. Ever 114
RAF Filton. From 26/9 36
RAF Middle Wallop. Ever 114
RAF Boscombe Down. From 14/8 79
RAF Exeter. Ever 114
RAF Pembrey. Ever 114
RAF St Eval. Ever but 13/8 and 10/9 112
RAF Warmwell. From 12/7 112
RAF Biggin Hill. Ever 114
RAF Debden. Until 7/10 90
RAF Hornchurch. Ever 114
RAF Kenley. Ever 114
RAF Northolt. Ever 114
RAF North Weald. Ever 114
RAF Tangmere. Ever 114
RAF Croydon. Ever but 19/8-31/8 101
RAF Eastchurch Never but 12 and 13/8 2
RAF Gravesend. 25/7- 29/10 but 10/9 96
RAF Hawkinge Never but 10/7 1
RAF Hendon. 5/9-25/9 21
RAF Martlesham. From 5/9 57
RAF Rochford. Until 23/7 14
RAF Stapleford. From 29/8 64
RAF Westhampnett. From 31/7 93
RAF West Malling. From 30/10 2
Castletown Ever but 1/9 and 14-17/9 109
Fowlmere 24/7-29/10 98
Matlask From 30/10 2
Castle Camps From 3/9 59
Sealand Never but 11 and 12/7 2
Prestwick From 23/8 but 10/10 68
Skitten 13/10-23/10 11
Chibolton From 30/9 32
Aldergrove From 20/7 104
Speke From 26/9 36

total 50 fields, 36 with almost a squadron for almost 57 days

 

[ponsford]

Hi Gents:

I had a look at RAF fighter Squadrons Stations as of December 1939 and came up with the following break down, principally taken from Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. by John Rawlings.

Squadrons equipped with Hurricanes in the UK during December 1939:
3, 17, 32, 43, 46, 56, 79, 111, 151, 213, 501, 504, 605.

7 squadrons converted to Hurricane from Battle or Blenheim after December 1939:

145 Converted from Blenheim to Hurricane at Croyden in March 40
229 Converted from Blenheim to Hurricane at Digby in March 40
242 Converted from Blenheim to Hurricane at Church Fenton in Feb. 40
245 Converted from Blenheim to Hurricane at Leconfield in March 40
253 Converted from Battle to Hurricane at Manston in Jan 40
263 Converted from Gladiator to Hurricane at Drem in June 40
601 Converted from Blenheim to Hurricane at Tangmere in Feb. 40

5 Squadrons formed and equipped with Hurricanes after December 1939

232 Formed with Hurricane at Sumburgh in July 40
257 Formed with Hurricane at Hendon in May 40
302 Formed with Hurricane at Leconfield in July 40
310 Formed with Hurricane at Duxford in July 40
312 Formed with Hurricane at Duxford in July 40

1 RCAF with Hurricanes: my source didn't list their history. Maybe someone can help with them.

Fighter Squadrons in France during December 1939:
1, 73, 85, 87 607 in Hurricane and 615 in Gladiator

Squadrons equipped with Spitfires in December 1939:
19, 41, 54, 65, 66, 72, 74, 152, 602, 603, 609, 610, 611, 616

5 Squadrons converted from Blenheim or Battle to Spitfire after December 1939.

64 Converted from Blenheim to Spitfire at Church Fenton in April 40
92 Converted from Blenheim to Spitfire at Croyden in March 40
222 Converted from Blenheim to Spitfire at Duxford in March 40
234 Converted from Blenheim to Spitfire at Leconfield in March 40
266 Converted from Battle to Spitfire at Sutton Bridge in Jan 40

I get 27 Spitfire and Hurricane Squadrons in Great Britain as of December 1939. The only other ones I found that were not on Hop's list are 79 Squadron which was based at Manston in December 39 and 19 Squadron which was based at Duxford in December 1939. Of course both Manston and Duxford were on the list of stations to receive 100 octane fuel. All 27 squadrons were based at stations listed to receive 100 octane fuel. Of those units equipping with Hurricanes or Spitfires after December 1939 the only stations I see that were not on the December operational station lists are Sumburgh, Hendon and Sutton Bridge. These three were listed as non-operational stations as of December 7th.

I found the source for the operational stations instructed to be issued 100 octane fuel at 100 Octane Fuel Memos

 

[Hop]

1 RCAF with Hurricanes: my source didn't list their history. Maybe someone can help with them.

From Squadrons of the Royal Air Force and Commonwealth 1918 - 1988:

No 1 squadron was formed in June 1937 at Trenton and left Canada on 9th June 1940 for the United Kingdom. Arriving on 19th June the squadron received Hurricanes at Middle Wallop and began operational training

I get 27 Spitfire and Hurricane Squadrons in Great Britain as of December 1939. The only other ones I found that were not on Hop's list are 79 Squadron which was based at Manston in December 39 and 19 Squadron which was based at Duxford in December 1939.

Mea Culpa on 79 squadron. The site I linked to said arrived Manston 12/11/39 To France 11/05/40. I misread that as "To France 12/11/39".

Their fault on 19 squadron, they list them arriving at Duxford 16/05/40. Perhaps because 19 had been at Duxford so long (since mid 1935) the date they arrived fell before the period they checked.

I checked 74 and 609 in "Squadrons of the RAF and Commonwealth". That lists 609 at Drem in December with no mention of Kinloss. 74 squadron was based at Hornchurch, with, in their words, "frequent detachments to Rochford".

So I think it's safe to conclude that every active Spitfire and Hurricane squadron base in December 1939 was scheduled to have their 87 octane fuel totally replaced by 100 octane, and all the other fighter stations, that weren't home to Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons, were scheduled to have supplies of 100 octane available for visiting Spits and Hurris.

 

[Kurfürst]

So I think it's safe to conclude that every active Spitfire and Hurricane squadron base in December 1939 was scheduled to have their 87 octane fuel totally replaced by 100 octane,

Hmm, now where will you read that actually?

I am re-reading that December 1939 latter, it oddly it doesn't mention anything about 'scheduling' or that they will 'have their 87 octane fuel totally replaced by 100 octane'

It simply requests for information on 100 octane fuel. It certianly does not say it will be issued to these stations, and even less that it will replace 87 octane.

Actually it would be very funny to say so, as it's quite obvious that whoever wrote this latter, had actually no idea when and where will 100 octane fuel be available at all.

All this because 'as instructions will have to be issued to Stations to make the necessary arrangements for acceptance'. But of course.

'Spitfire' and 'Hurricane' fighter types have been cleared for the use of this fuel, so they will certainly need some sort of operational, maintenance instructions for it. Then it simply list the the stations that will be effected by this, ie. stations which have 'Spitfire' and 'Hurricane' type fighters.

I am sorry but this is not an memo regarding issuing the fuel to these stations, but requiring information, thats all.

It says : 'operational stations at which the fuel will be required' and not 'operational stations at which the fuel will be allocated'.

________________________________________________________________

Sir,

I have the honour to refer to my letter FC/S.15447/76/EQ.2. dated 27th October, 1939, regarding the issue of 100 Octane fuel for use in Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft in this Command.

2. It is understood from your R.D.E.6 Branch that the use of this type of fuel has been authorised for use in the above types of aircraft. Information is now sought as to:-

(i) When the 100 Octane Fuel will be available in quantity.
(ii) The contract no. etc., for demanding purposes.
(iii) The Petroleum Distributing points for the various Fighter Command Stations, situated as they are in various parts of the country.

3. It will probably be necessary, when the 100 octane fuel is available, to request disposal instructions for varying quantities of D.T.D.224 and other grades of petrol that will not be required in such large quantities on the introduction of the 100 Octane fuel.

4. It would be appreciated if you would kindly give this Headquarters as much notice as possible regarding this new type of fuel, as instructions will have to be issued to Stations to make the necessary arrangements for acceptance.

5. The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are:

*LIST OMMITTED*

6. All non-operational Stations in the Fighter Command will also have to hold certain quantities of this fuel for visiting aircraft. Non-operational Stations and Stations which have no Hurricane or Spitfire aircraft at the moment are:-

*LIST OMMITTED*

[signature etc.]
_________________________________________________________________


Where does it say these Stations will be supplied with 100 octane fuel? It certainly doesn't.

and all the other fighter stations, that weren't home to Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons, were scheduled to have supplies of 100 octane available for visiting Spits and Hurris.

Again, that particular source doesn't say anything like that.

It says:

'will also have to hold certain quantities of this fuel', and not 'will hold certain quantities of this fuel'. A wish, rather than a statement.

Of course which units would receive 100 octane fuel was already decided, in March 1939 - 16 Spitfire/Hurricane squadrons and 2 Blenheim Squadrons. You say there were about only 30 Squadrons in 1939? That works out as ca 50%; during the battle there were about 50-60 Squadrons, that works out as around 25%.

 

[Juha]

Vincenzo, thanks for Your effort.

Kurfürst
now standard works on BoB claim that FC converted to 100 oct before the BoB. To prove that the all those specialists were wrong you need something more concrete than your speculations. For example Denis Richards wrote with a co-writer the 3 volume official history of RAF in WWII and in fact he wrote alone the Volume I which covered the period from pre-war to middle of 41. I don't claim that official histories got it all right but the burden of proof is on you not on Hop

Juha

 

[Glider]

Hmm, now where will you read that actually?

It simply requests for information on 100 octane fuel. It certianly does not say it will be issued to these stations, and even less that it will replace 87 octane.

Actually it would be very funny to say so, as it's quite obvious that whoever wrote this latter, had actually no idea when and where will 100 octane fuel be available at all.

All this because 'as instructions will have to be issued to Stations to make the necessary arrangements for acceptance'. But of course.

If you are planning to introduce one type of fuel in place of another you need to know when that fuel is going to be available, its common sense.

'Spitfire' and 'Hurricane' fighter types have been cleared for the use of this fuel, so they will certainly need some sort of operational, maintenance instructions for it. Then it simply list the the stations that will be effected by this, ie. stations which have 'Spitfire' and 'Hurricane' type fighters.

I am sorry but this is not an memo regarding issuing the fuel to these stations, but requiring information, thats all.

I don't disagree with most of this statement but the list is not a final list, see my comments later

It says : 'operational stations at which the fuel will be required' and not 'operational stations at which the fuel will be allocated'.

Your inflexion is wrong here. You need to know which stations need the fuel before you issue it. The clear meaning here is that they wanted confirmation as to which stations require the fuel so they can send it there. There is no hidden meaning that you may not have enough fuel to send it to all the stations.

________________________________________________________________

Sir,

I have the honour to refer to my letter FC/S.15447/76/EQ.2. dated 27th October, 1939, regarding the issue of 100 Octane fuel for use in Hurricane and Spitfire aircraft in this Command.

Note is refers to Hurricanes and Spitfires in this command, not certain aircraft or certain districts. If there was a shortage you would expect it to say for instance 'Hurricane and Spitfires in 11 Group'.

2. It is understood from your R.D.E.6 Branch that the use of this type of fuel has been authorised for use in the above types of aircraft. Information is now sought as to:-

(i) When the 100 Octane Fuel will be available in quantity.
(ii) The contract no. etc., for demanding purposes.
(iii) The Petroleum Distributing points for the various Fighter Command Stations, situated as they are in various parts of the country.

Totally understandable questions. (i) When will the fuel be available, (ii) what are the admin processes involved, (iii) What are the Petroleum Distributing points for Fighter Command.

3. It will probably be necessary, when the 100 octane fuel is available, to request disposal instructions for varying quantities of D.T.D.224 and other grades of petrol that will not be required in such large quantities on the introduction of the 100 Octane fuel.

Again totally understandable question, you don't expect them to just pour fuel down the drain do you?

4. It would be appreciated if you would kindly give this Headquarters as much notice as possible regarding this new type of fuel, as instructions will have to be issued to Stations to make the necessary arrangements for acceptance.

Again totally fair question.

5. The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are:

*LIST OMMITTED*

Note the use of the words in the first instance. This is not a definitive list, its stating which stations should be issued first. Again a totaly understandable piece of information.

6. All non-operational Stations in the Fighter Command will also have to hold certain quantities of this fuel for visiting aircraft. Non-operational Stations and Stations which have no Hurricane or Spitfire aircraft at the moment are:-

*LIST OMMITTED*

[signature etc.]

Again totally understandable.
_________________________________________________________________

Where does it say these Stations will be supplied with 100 octane fuel? It certainly doesn't.

It certainly does say that. The entire memo is about wanting the information so that it can be distributed

'will also have to hold certain quantities of this fuel', and not 'will hold certain quantities of this fuel'. A wish, rather than a statement.

Wrong. its not a wish, its a statement of fact. They will also have to hold certain quantities of 100 Octane.

Of course which units would receive 100 octane fuel was already decided, in March 1939 - 16 Spitfire/Hurricane squadrons and 2 Blenheim Squadrons. You say there were about only 30 Squadrons in 1939? That works out as ca 50%; during the battle there were about 50-60 Squadrons, that works out as around 25%.

This is the bit which I admit I don't understand. All the documentation is about the authorisation of distributing 100 Octane and the mechanics of that distribution to an initial list of stations. As you know more than one squadron was normally based at a station, so even the intial list of stations would result in more than 18 fighter squadrons, yet you stick to 18 squadrons?

 

[Kurfürst]

Kurfürst
now standard works on BoB claim that FC converted to 100 oct before the BoB.

So far you have quoted none of these 'standard works'.

It is clear for Gavin Bailey summary of the RAF's archieve documents that only 16+2 squadrons of Fighter Command were scheaduled for operating 100 octane fuel. Its also clear FC first started to convert these Squadrons in March-May 1940.

There is no evidence at all that more than 16+2 Squadrons have received 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain.

If you wish to prove that the March 1939 decision for 18 was revived later, and that *all* Fighter Squadrons were issued 100 octane fuel, provide the documentation for that.

To prove that the all those specialists were wrong you need something more concrete than your speculations.

So far you have quoted none of those specialist.

You keep distort the actual statements of these authors - none of them I am aware of state that 100 octane fuel was used exclusively, in fact, Gavin Bailey makes it clear that 16+2 Squadrons were meant to use it, and also fabricate strawman arguements. I have never claimed these specialist are wrong.

I don't claim that official histories got it all right but the burden of proof is on you not on Hop.

Its clear that you are incapable of supporting your claims and that you wish to be freed from the burden of prooving them.

See also Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia regarding your tactics.

The burden of proof is always on the one making a postive claim. You are making a positive claim when you say that each and every Fighter Command Squadrons was supposedly provided with 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain. Thus the burden of proof is on you. So far you have provided no evidence for these claims.

 

[Kurfürst]

This is the bit which I admit I don't understand. All the documentation is about the authorisation of distributing 100 Octane and the mechanics of that distribution to an initial list of stations.

The document does not say a word about there being plans to distrubute fuel to all the Stations listed. You seem to have troubles with reading comprehension.

The document says:

'The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are'

You appearantly having trouble with understanding the meaning of 'required'. Oxford defines it as :

require

• verb
1 need for a purpose; depend on.
2 wish to have.
3 instruct or expect (someone) to do something.
— ORIGIN Latin requirere, from quaerere 'seek'.

Ie.

'The operational stations at which the fuel will be needed for a purpose in the first instance are'
'The operational stations at which the fuel will be wish to be had in the first instance are'
'The operational stations at which the fuel will be expected in the first instance are'

As you know more than one squadron was normally based at a station, so even the intial list of stations would result in more than 18 fighter squadrons, yet you stick to 18 squadrons?

Wishful speculations are your table, not mine. In fact, you have supplied no evidence at all to this discussion, but your own speculations.

Gavin Bailey makes it clear that only 16+2 Squadrons were concerned as far as issue of 100 octane fuel goes. There's no evidence that this was revised.

In fact, the 18th May 1940 make it clear that the fuel was only stocked with the 'Units concrned', not 'all units'.

If you wish to prove your 'teapot' floating in deep space full of 100 octane fuel, from which it pours to each and every Spit and Hurri around, you need to prove that this teapot exists, not others that it doesn't exist.

 

[Juha]

Kurfürst
look again at my message #55. Denis Richards happened to be the author of the official history, all you have is a plan made ½ year before the outbrake of the war, IMHO most of us understand that outbrake of war usually has impact of plans of armed forces. Now can you give a book wrote by BoB specialist in which claimed that during the BoB FC fighters used 87 oct fuel? Please.

Juha

 

[Kurfürst]

Can you provide a scan or a quote from Denis Richards book which state all FC Squadrons were using 100 octane fuel during the Battle of Britain?

 

[Glider]

The document does not say a word about there being plans to distrubute fuel to all the Stations listed. You seem to have troubles with reading comprehension.

The document says:

'The operational stations at which the fuel will be required in the first instance are'

You appearantly having trouble with understanding the meaning of 'required'. Oxford defines it as :

require

• verb
1 need for a purpose; depend on.
2 wish to have.
3 instruct or expect (someone) to do something.
— ORIGIN Latin requirere, from quaerere 'seek'.

Ie.

'The operational stations at which the fuel will be needed for a purpose in the first instance are'
'The operational stations at which the fuel will be wish to be had in the first instance are'
'The operational stations at which the fuel will be expected in the first instance are'

Exactly, he is saying that the operational stations that he wishes. or wants, or expects in the first instance to be equiped with the fuel are.
You have to remember that there is a difference between asking for something to be done, and it being able to be done. He knows that he is asking a lot but doesn't know if the person he is asking can do it.
You know that at the next meeting they passed on the offical thanks of the Air Ministry as to how well this task was undertaken.
You also know that at later meetings permission was given for the fuel to be issued to other commands.

Wishful speculations are your table, not mine. In fact, you have supplied no evidence at all to this discussion, but your own speculations.

Sorry there is a wealth of evidence and you are simply not taking it into account.

Gavin Bailey makes it clear that only 16+2 Squadrons were concerned as far as issue of 100 octane fuel goes. There's no evidence that this was revised.

I admit to not knowing this Gavin Bailey. Can I ask you to point me to a link or book as it seems to be the crux of the confusion. It might help straighten me out.

In fact, the 18th May 1940 make it clear that the fuel was only stocked with the 'Units concrned', not 'all units'.

And according to everythng that I have read 'all units' is all Hurricane and Spitfire Units.
Think it through, why would they give it to a Blenhiem Unit and not a Spitfire Unit when all a Blenhiem Unit is, is basically target practice for the Luftwaffe?

If you wish to prove your 'teapot' floating in deep space full of 100 octane fuel, from which it pours to each and every Spit and Hurri around, you need to prove that this teapot exists, not others that it doesn't exist.

We have
(i) the actual stocks of Fuel,
(ii) The order authorising it to be issued to all Hurricane and Spitfire Units
(iii) the paper containing the list of stations to be so equipped in the first instance
(iv) the paper passing on the thanks of the Air Ministry for the way this was carried out
(v) the paper authorising the fuel to be released to all other commands.
(vi) The Pilots reports on the use of the extra boost from a number of squadrons including its use in France
(vii) The squadrons moving around during the battle with their ouw aircraft and no evidence of them having to take their own fuel with them.
Now I may be out of order, but as a paper trail it seems pretty good to me and I expect most others.

You have Gavin Bailey. As I said if you could point me to a copy of this source I would appreciate it so I can study it.

 

[Juha]

Kurfürst
I don't have a scanner but IIRC you have sometimes quoted Wood's Dempster's The Narrow Margin. In my old HB 1961 edition on page 98 "...By July 11th, 1940, the day after the BoB opened, stocks of 100 octane petrol used in the Merlin engine stood at 343,000 tons..."

Juha

 

[Kurfürst]

Gavin Bailey: The Narrow Margin of Criticality: The Question of the Supply of 100-Octane Fuel in the Battle of Britain -- Bailey CXXIII (501): 394 -- The English Historical Review

 

[Kurfürst]

Kurfürst
I don't have a scanner but IIRC you have sometimes quoted Wood's Dempster's The Narrow Margin. In my old HB 1961 edition on page 98 "...By July 11th, 1940, the day after the BoB opened, stocks of 100 octane petrol used in the Merlin engine stood at 343,000 tons..."

Juha

He seems to suggest that 100 octane petrol was used in the Merlin engine, but nothing more. I don't think any of us disagrees with him that 100 octane fuel was used during the Battle.

Some however claim that nothing else was used. This claim is what we need evidence for.

 

[claidemore]

Too Funny!
Logic is being applied as orders and messages are dissected to 'prove' one point or another.
So, using logic....a war starts, Britain is 'on the ropes'facing imminent invasion, they have supplies of 100 octane fuel which they know gives their fighters a tremendous boost.

Do they:
A-leave it in storage
or
B-use it.

Duh.