Erich said:
propagating more myths I see. have you interviewed any of the JG 301 pilots of III. gruppe and Geschwader stab ? I have ! NO p-51's were ever encountered friend. Incidently a cousin of mine served in JG 301......so I'm not pooping here
NO Ta 152's were ever used in airfield defence either, Doras of III./JG 54 were and the weak 5 a/c staffel ~ Würger staffel of JV 44. JG 7 never had any airfield protection niether did the 262 bomber units.
you quote tech specs and nothing else. you do not quote bonafide pilot documentation in the engagements nor in the testing faze when III.gruppe pilots tested fully the high altitiude and dving performance of the bird on way to their airfield. I have the source docs..........
Since the G-6/AS and G-10 could not fulfill the high Altitude requirements to combat the P-51D and K the Dora was outfitted with a rewtructured Jumop to be followed closely and then fazed out by the Ta 152H and the C series although few in number were taken over by GEschwader Stab/JG 301 and used successfully agasint eh Soviets in March/April of 45.
The Mk 108 was the standard hard hitting cannon with few rounds needed and as such the twin 2cm were for hitting the US/RAF fighter at the lower range and while closeing give the coup de grace with the 3cm. Me 262's with the overpowered four 3cm weapons, pilots finding it was actually too much weaponry used at times only two Mk 108's in engageing the US heavies as well as fighters and also in the night flights against the illusive Mossies of the LSNF and the night fighter versions
In time you would have seen had the war continued TA 152 variants flying high cover for attacking jets and then with advent of more streamlined jets protecting their own selves the TA 152 and marks above it taking on the P-51's and other variable prop driven craft...
the TA was to bring the P-51 up for a tickle now at the TA's best altitudes
I haven't interviewed any Ta 152 pilots. I have interviewed dozens of surviving American fighter pilots as well as some Canadians and Brits. Indeed, I was the last writer to interview Robert Johnson prior to his death. That interview has been published. I have also worked with Warren Bodie and shared bylines with him in Flight Journal. In addition I have also been published in Air Power International with Dr. Carlo Kopp.
So you can save your feather puffing for someone who is impressed with that sort of display.
Let's see, 150 Ta 152H models rolled off the line and no production 152Cs ever flew... Sounds like far too little, far too late. And spare us the strawman argument about "if the war had continued..." It could not and did not continue and Germany was utterly crushed. While the Me 262 was a wonder, the Allies were close behind in Jet aircraft technology, especially in engines where the Germans suffered from a serious lack of reliability. Despite the 262's performance, if you can't get off and on to your airfields, they are generally worthless.
Swarms of 152s and 262s are wishful thinking. Besides, the Allies had some serious hardware in the pipeline as well. The P-47N and P-51H were available should they have been needed. To that you can add the P-47M, which was in combat service in similar numbers to the 152H. We cannot overlook the latest Meteor and the new Vampire. We shouldn't forget the P-72 Superbolt, an absolute monster set aside to develop the P-84.
Robert Muller writes in Air Power Journal:
"The idea of the Me 262 as the potentially decisive wonder weapon is one of the most enduring myths in airpower history. Hitler's oft-quoted order forbidding the employment of this aircraft as a fighter dates from May 1944, by which time no Me 262s were in service. Because design and technical faults still plagued the aircraft, its employment in any role would have to await their resolution--as would the training of a sufficient number of pilots, many of whom found it difficult to master the temperamental interceptor. It is unlikely that the jet could have appeared in combat much earlier than it did, even without Hitler's interference. The 262, although a deadly aircraft in the hands of the right pilot, remained essentially a prototype pressed into combat service. Throughout its short service life, the aircraft suffered from an abnormally high accident rate and scored only a minuscule number of combat victories."
Dr. Richard R. Muller (BA, Franklin and Marshall College; MA, PhD, Ohio State University) is a professor of military history at Air Command and Staff College, Maxwell AFB, Alabama. Specializing in the history of World War II and the development of airpower, he teaches core courses in airpower history, international security studies, the nature of war, leadership and command, and the elective course The Second World War and the Operational Art. Dr. Muller's publications include The German Air War in Russia (1992) and The Luftwaffe's Way of War: German Air Force Doctrine, 1911-1945 (with James S. Corum, 1998).
I'm sure many would debate Muller's conclusions, but they would appear as dolts in the effort.
A few years ago, several senior Engineers at Dryden compared the relative development levels of the P-80A and the Me 262 as they appeared in March 1945 and concluded that the P-80 was further along in development and offered greater potential development. Notice that no one bothered to build 262s after the war ended. Ironically, the Bf 109 remained in or re-entered production in at least two countries.
My reading on 190s indicates to me that some pilots preferred the Dora to the 152 due to better performance at low to medium altitudes. By late 1944, the air war was frequently at tree-top level over Luftwaffe airfields.
As to never meeting P-51s, what about the claim attributed to Kurt Tank that he was forced to out-run P-51s when he encountered them during a 152 flight. If true, at least one Ta 152 encountered P-51s. I suspect that it is not true. Considering the range of P-51s and their ability to follow a fighter anywhere it might fly. An example of this is Major George Ceuleers kill of a 262. Ceuleers chased the 262 for more than 100 miles, finally running it out of fuel over a Luftwaffe field. The pilot baled out. After the war Ceuleers located the German pilot. In their conversation the German stated that while he could handily out-distance the Mustang, he could not sustain that speed due to chronic over-temping of the engines, a common problem.... Had a squadron of P-51s encountered Tank in a 152, he escaped laregly because the Mustangs were not interested in chasing a single fighter. Had they decided to pursue, eventually he would run out of MW50 and be in deep bandini.
I just read a post here claiming that 262s routinely shot down P-51s..Really? Someone should tell the Air Force so they can adjust their loss records... Here's the quote: "There are many who will debate your argument. The Me 262 accounted for an interesting number of P-51´s with the lousy ballistics of its cannon."
In 1944-45, more P-51s were lost to taxiway accidents than to German jets. Moreover, I've never seen a single verified instance of a 262 shooting down a maneuvering Mustang. Oh, and neither the Yak-3 or the Yak-9U were the best low altitude fighter of the war. I would give that title to the Tempest Mk.V or perhaps the Lavochkin La-7, both of which would fly circles around (figuratively for you anal retentive types) a 152 on the deck.
Now, back to the claim of 500 mph 152s. Post some test data to support that. Personal pilot accounts are not only unreliable due to memory lapse after 60 years, but there technical issues that cannot be overlooked. Tell me, how much horsepower would the Ta 152 require to attain 500 mph in level flight. Without doing the calculation, I'd wager 700 hp more than the Jumo could generate. Where's the test data?
I know of one P-47 pilot who swears to this day that his Jug exceeded the speed of sound in a dive. He based that upon what he saw on his airspeed indicator. Despite informing him that no P-47 was ever measured at speeds in excess of Mach 0.83, he sticks by his myth. He ignores the proven effect localized transonic airflow has at the pitot tube inlet. Airspeed indicators of the era were wildly inaccurate at high speed and high altitude.
Personally, I believe that Dora was a heck of fighter and far more useful than the 152H. No one is arguing that the 152 was not a tremendous fighter. However, the Allies had several aircraft fully able to match it. Just as the P-47 was not a very effective fighter down low, the 152 would suffer similar limitations. By the time a pitifully small amount of 152s were flight ready, the air war was already long past winning. Even if the Good Fairy had replaced every 190 and 109 with Ta 152s, the outcome would have been the same.
My regards,
NAVAIR