It's 1940 and you're....

[timshatz]

Great job Freebird. Any problems that might be with the map (and from what I can see there is nothing we can't explain around) are minor. Good setup.

Ok, we have the Forces, we have the economic conditions, we have the time frame.

Let's go!

Ok, first move for the RN is to keep the Scapa Flow force where it is. As it is, it can check either the German Fleet in Kiel or the force in Norway. The intent is to bottle them up in the North Sea.

Move two, reinforce Gibraltar. My fist instinct would be to abandon it, but I think we can hold it. Holding it would put a plug in the Med and keep the Spanish/Italian fleet in. Easier to hold Gibraltar than to have to deal with the combined fleet loose in the Atlantic. The Spanish and Italians can not throw their fleet against Gibraltar without leaving the rest of the Med (mostly Italy) undefended against an attack from Alexandria by the British Med Fleet. Worst case scenario, if Gibraltar falls, it will at least keep the Spanish and Italians busy long enough to take the next, and most important, step....


Seizure of the Canaries and Azores. While the Forces from Freetown are looking big and bad around the mouth of the Med, a force sets sail from the Canadian maritimes with the intention of taking both the Canaries and Azores. This is a must. If the Axis powers can reinforce the Canaries (or seize the Azores), it could act like Malta did during WW2 to the German forces coming from Italy to Africa. It could shut England off from her colonies. The force in the Med is already doing that (defacto) without firing a shot. But losing control of the Central Atlantic (and allowing the Axis to turn those islands into a base for Subs/Raiders/long range bombers) could cost the Brits the war.

Portugal, who doubtless is not going to think the invasion of the Azores is a good idea, will be told at the last minute and presented with a fait acompli. Either go along as a willing hostage or take the consequences as an enemy.

 

[Lucky13]

So, what are we sending down theree then....?

 

[timshatz]

Send the whole force from Canada less a couple of lite cruisers to cover the back door in case a raider or two shows up. England has to take the Azores and the Canaries or this thing is over.

Taking the Azores will push Portugal into the Axis camp. Not that it wants to, but at that point it would have no choice. Spain would probably insist on it.

 

[Lucky13]

So the whole force part from let's say three light cruisers then....?

 

[timshatz]

Yeah, everything that floats, BBs, CVs, CAs, everything.

Whoever holds those islands out there in strength controls the Mid-Atlantic trade routes. England just can not afford that loss and stay in the war.

 

[B-17engineer]

Are we just focusing on Air force and naval power?

 

[Freebird]

Send the whole force from Canada less a couple of lite cruisers to cover the back door in case a raider or two shows up. England has to take the Azores and the Canaries or this thing is over.

Taking the Azores will push Portugal into the Axis camp. Not that it wants to, but at that point it would have no choice. Spain would probably insist on it.

I wonder about some "black ops", a parachute landing by {fake} German paratroopers performed by SAS in disguise, on the largely undefended {in 1940} Azores, followed very quickly by the British troops {convieniently available} making a naval landing to "Secure" the islands. If Hitler protested that the first wave of German speaking invaders were fake, would he really be believed? I should note that in this time period that Portugal was actively discussing with the UK to have british troops defend the Island, as they were in fact very worried about a Nazi invasion

Are we just focusing on Air force and naval power?

Mainly yes, we are exploring the ramifications of Naval air power.

I should note that I consider this position to be untenable, the British cannot kepe the convoy route secure defend the colonies unless they have at least 150% of Axis strength, and an even larger margin if Gibraltar is open to the Axis.

If the UK was ever faced by this situation, they would have to sue for peace IMO, otherwise lose all of the colonies anyways.

 

[B-17engineer]

Okay thanks

 

[timshatz]

B17, these are the opening moves of this thing. At present, it is almost all naval power. And while Freebird is right, the main idea is to explore the limits and ramifications of Naval Power, I do not believe any Naval question could be discussed without taking into consideration the power of the Air Forces, especially 4 engined bombers.

Freebird, my worry of a black op situation would be the time it would take. I have a feeling this thing is going to be screwed up from the start (thinking along the lines of the British invasion of Norway). I think, paraphrasing Bedford Forrest, the one that wins is going to be "The one that gets there firstest with the mostest". I would imagine the SAS/Mi6 types had checked this place out earlier when the war clouds were on the horizon. Somebody in the Admiralty had to have an eye towards the strategic ramifications of Spain coming into the war against England. Azores would be at the top of the list.

As for the ratio, I think England can survive at present. Neither Spain nor Italy is a major threat. While they are naval powers, they are not of the same caliber as the German threat. The British have to take the Germans as their primary enemy, both in terms of combat power and ability. I see Spain and Italy as more Med threats.

I think the opening moves by Britian will be successful, though marked by confusion and questionable competence. At that point, she transfers a couple of squadrons of Flying boats (if available) and the same with long range aircraft (if we are still using B17s at this juncture, it would be a good spot to bring them to). Also, at least two divisions of troops. Local defenses include defensive air power in the form of Fighters. In short, the Azores and Canaries are fortified.

 

[plan_D]

You people really need to play on Hearts of Iron II - you'd enjoy it.

 

[B-17engineer]

i didn't know if like we should protect our shores......

Like artillery for an incoming invasion......Infantry units for ground battles. I suppose the 4 engined bombers would be used to bomb the mainland of our threat. Do we have any attack planes??

 

[timshatz]

Like artillery for an incoming invasion......Infantry units for ground battles. I suppose the 4 engined bombers would be used to bomb the mainland of our threat. Do we have any attack planes??

What are you talking about defending? England? Spain? Azores?

 

[Freebird]

Like artillery for an incoming invasion......Infantry units for ground battles. I suppose the 4 engined bombers would be used to bomb the mainland of our threat. Do we have any attack planes??

Assume that all of the nations have roughly what they did historically, so the British don't have the Typhoon yet, but they have some Beaufighters, Marylands Bostons as attack aircraft. The British also have the some Hurri II's but I'm not sure if they have the cannon versions yet. The first British 4 engine bombers are the Stirling Halifax, there are perhaps only a half dozen squadrons in service by the end of 1940

Great job Freebird. Any problems that might be with the map (and from what I can see there is nothing we can't explain around) are minor. Good setup.

I had some trouble with the "paint" on the other computer. I'll update the map tonight with the convoy info, so you can see what defensive ship moves you might want to make.

 

[timshatz]

I'll update the map tonight with the convoy info, so you can see what defensive ship moves you might want to make.

Thanks Bud, I appreciate your work. Good to put this stuff on a map.

I think the Axis counter will be marginal for now. If they have any sense (and I'm assuming they do), they will not try to retake the Azores but use it to keep the Brits occupied. Their real advantage lies elsewhere.

I see a force leaving Italy and heading for Malta. Taking Malta is going to be the Axis focus as it will secure their sea lanes to Africa. Being land powers, the Axis wants to use their Naval power in support of their Armies. Taking Malta, in an operation similar to that which was done at Crete in 1941.

 

[Freebird]

Thanks Bud, I appreciate your work. Good to put this stuff on a map.

I think the Axis counter will be marginal for now. If they have any sense (and I'm assuming they do), they will not try to retake the Azores but use it to keep the Brits occupied. Their real advantage lies elsewhere.

I see a force leaving Italy and heading for Malta. Taking Malta is going to be the Axis focus as it will secure their sea lanes to Africa. Being land powers, the Axis wants to use their Naval power in support of their Armies. Taking Malta, in an operation similar to that which was done at Crete in 1941.

I think I might have thrown a monkey wrench with including France in the mix... But there were serious British concerns about this possibility, with the later conflicts against the Vichy in Madegascar Syria. And of course Laval's attitude was quite anti-British

In any event, Malta loses much of it's importance because the Axis could ship directly from France/spain into Algeirs, Oran other French African ports, bypassing Malta.

Also I don't think you can hold Gibraltar with the entry on Spain into the war. The airfield at Gibraltar is extremely limited, and subject to artillery fire from Spanish guns. A combined German/Spanish air attack against the port/airbase will eliminate the British fighters drive off the fleet within a couple of days. It would take a few more days for Axis aircraft heavy rail guns to neutralize the British fortress guns, opening the straights to the Axis, even if the troops there were still holding out

 

[timshatz]

I think your fine by taking France out. As long as the Brits get her fleet, we have something. With Italy coming in, it reshaped the whole setup. Need the Free French fleet to keep the scenario viable.

As for Malta being important, I truely believe it has to be taken. Given the lines of communication, it is crucial to take that island (for the Axis) so they can support the next link of their plan, the drive towards the Middle East.

Going west across the top of Africa will turn the Med into an Axis lake, remove Alexandria (and Egypt) from the British Colonial System, shut down the Suez Canal and allow the Germans to seize oil assets they need to suppor their operations. It would make the Balkans and Turkey defacto allies of the Axis (in name if not in fact) and threaten the Jewel in the Crown, India.

My plan, at present, has the Allied Forces seizing the Canaries and Azores, while the Axis forces seize Malta and bring the 6th Army to North Africa in preparation for a drive to Mesopotamia.

Freebird, can you map that? I'd like to see what it looks like, give me some time to think it through.

BTW- While I'd love to take credit for moving the 6th Army to Africa as the main assalt (on the Middle East) after the fall of France (instead of going into Russia), I have to give credit where credit is due (to a far better strategic thinker). The idea was Liddel Hart's idea and came from his book, "On Strategy".

Amazon.com: Strategy: Second Revised Edition (Meridian): Books: B. H. Liddell Hart

Great book on strategy. Especiallywhen it comes to the designs and decisions of WW2. Little dry and at times redundent but well written and thought out.

As far as Gibralter is concerned, it is a good question. I thinkthe Brits would want to hold it as far as it would give them a toehold in the Med. Also, a base of operations for subs. I agree with you it is doubtful the fleet or major air component could survive. Still, I think the Brits would at least try to hold it. My fear is, you are right. They would lose it. It is just too strategically important for the Germans to allow it in their rear. Plus, it's been a thorn in the side of Spain since it was taken.

 

[Freebird]

.

Freebird, can you map that? I'd like to see what it looks like, give me some time to think it through.

Sure no problem. First, before we get into Malta, Azores Canaries, there is the question of how Axis naval units in the Atlantic will affect the convoys. (even before Gibraltar falls there is still the possibility of German or Spanish raiders venturing into the shipping lanes) It might be interesting to see how a fleet could react.

Ok just to update, here are the notations I used

BB Battleship modern
BC Battlecruiser
BD Dreadnought 21 - 23 knts, 8+ guns 13.5"+ (Royal Oak or Bretane class)
B Old 12" Battleship (Iron Duke, Paris etc)
CA Heavy Cruiser 9,000 tons+ 8 x 8" or 12 x 6" guns
CM Medium Cruiser eg. 7,000 - 9,000 tons 9 or 10 x 6" guns
CL Light cruiser
CE Crusier (escort) old slow CL, eg Ceres or Emden 29 knts, 6 or 8 x 6" guns
CF Flak Cruiser 4" AA guns
CV
CVE 20 - 22 knts, 20 aircraft
CVL 26 - 32 knts, 24 aircraft
MC Merchant cruiser (aux) 8,000 - 12,000 tons 20 knts 6 or 8 x 6" or 8" guns

Cruisers MC's are in groups of 2, so a "CA" means 2 heavy cruisers
All Capital ships carriers are individualy listed.

I've assumed that the Axis have 3 CVL's (CA's converted to light carriers)
The British have re-converted "HMS Vindictive" to a CVL and have also converted another "Fiji" class into a CVL {"HMS Vengance"}

Consider in this scenario that the Germans Spanish have launched a surprise Christmas attack on Gibraltar, within about 3 days the British guns are neutralized and the fleet has moved out into the Atlantic {to location marked with an asterisk} The fortress still holds out, but is unable to control the straights, and a large Axis fleet has moved through to the Spanish base at Tangier. The German Pocket Battleship "Scheer" + a couple of cruisers in Dakar, Africa, having just been out raiding in the South Atlantic.

Iv'e marked the convoys that are en route, inbound (to Britain) in Red, outbound in purple. Convoys consist of 40 - 80 merchants, + 1 DD and 2 DE's. British bases are small Red squares, Yellow for Spanish, Blue for French.

Consider the starting lineup to be

Scapa Flow {&UK}
--------------------------

1 x BB, 1 x BC, 4 x BD, 2 x B, 2 x CV, CA, CM, CL, CE, CF

Gibraltar Fleet {in Atlantic}
--------------------------
1 x BC, BD, 1 x CV, CA, CL, CE, CF

Freetown
--------------------------
CVL, CA, CL, B

Alexandria
--------------------------
3 x BD, CV, CA, CM, CF

St. Johns
--------------------------
BD, CA, CE

Trinidad
--------------------------
CVE, CA, CM, CL

Burmuda
--------------------------
CVL, CA, CL

There is also a CA at Ascension, and a CE in Aruba. There is 1 MC at each British base on the map exept for Malta, Accra Trinidad. Also 1 MC is with the "Gibraltar fleet" The reserve is 1 each of BD, BC, CVL, CA, CM, CL, CE, these units can be placed anywhere.

Each merchant convoy takes about 5 - 7 days between each port {or waypoint - a red cross}, this is the position at the outbreak of hostilities. Think about orders you would give to your Navy, and what course changes you would give to the convoys (if any). Remember that a breakout by Italian, German Spanish surface raiders could destroy dozens of ships in each convoy. One probable Axis plan would be for several raiding groups to set out, each consisting of a CVL, BC, a few cruisers to make attacks on a convoy

Again, remember that each MC, CA, CM, CL, CE or CF cruiser consists of 2 ships.

 

[Lucky13]

Niiiice work Freebird!

 

[Freebird]

I think you like ship pics Lucky {me too} so this is for you.

Part of this thread is exploring possible scenarios threats for our "maritime power", and I think we are also looking at ship types. The 3 main naval threats are: enemy fleet actions {battleships}, U-boats, and surface raiders.
For protection against surface raiders is one of the main focus of our Cruisers Battlecruisers.

The one main failing of the British navy {pre WWII} is that they did not have ant "fast" CA's or CL's, as the RN units could all only do about 32 -33 knts. Compare that to the Italian CA's "Trento" class - 35 knts, the CL's "Barbiano" "Attendolo" class which could both do 36 knts

Heavy Cruisers

The cruisers were often deployed in pairs of the same type, but to balance things I have for British "CA"s put 1 "County" class {Kent, 10,500 tons} with 1 "Town" class {Belfast 9,300 tons} together as a pair

The "County"s had 8 x 8" guns, + 4 twin 4" AA gun mounts.

The "Town"s had 12 x 6" guns in 4 triple mounts, + 4 twin 4" AA guns.
The original intention was for the "Towns" to switch the triple 6" guns for twin 8" mounts, {like the Mogami's} but in wartime it was decided to keep the triple 6"s, because there was not enough time space to re-fit them all, also the newer 6" guns proved very effective, with a faster firing rate than the 8" s.
Both types could do about 32.5 knots

I will put a couple pictures of the Town class "HMS Belfast"
For "County" class the best pic is in my Siggy!

 

[Freebird]

And here are "Trento" and "Zara+Pola"

They both had 8 x 8" guns, but the "Pola"s could only do 32 knts, like the British ships