Luftwaffe's ideal night fighter: you are in charge

In very late war Do 335 and Me262 are undoubtly the best
In 1942:
Start with Ju 88 c
1) remove the gondola (+15-20 km/h)
2) Introduce a low drug canopy (Like ju 388j s) no rear defensive gun
3) Use BMW 801D (Realistic scenario) or detuned jumo 222 2000hp (unrealistic scenario)
4)3 men crew
5)Extended wings from ju 188 and tail surfaces similar to Ju 88g
6) possibly powered controls
7) 2 mg 151/20 in swallow belly pacage plus one in the nose firing between the radar antennas ( field modification, i have the photo) plus 1 mg 151 SM
I expect from this configuration a speed of ~560-580km/h , excellent handling, endurance, adequate firepower,space for electronics and development potential. From january 43 use of db603A would lower weight and increase speed specially over 6000m . use of GM1 in special units could even allow to intercept pathfinders mosquito.
Then , in spring 44 , db 603 E for a further small gain in performance and streamlined radar antenas. Finally in autumn 44 use of Mw50 to finally catch the mosquito in performance. Then Do 335 can replace it.
But with the total defaet of germany in electronic warfare no desicive diference would have been achieved.
For wilde sau operations i would propose db 605 equiped FW 187

Are you sure that's realistic?

27,783 BMW801 engines were produced.
Over 15,000 Fw-190A/F/G fighter aircraft were produced. Powered by BMW801 engine.
Some other aircraft such as the Do-217E were also powered by BMW801 engines.

It appears to me that historical BMW801 engine production was inadequate to support the historical aircraft programs. What happens when a Fw-190A needs an engine change? There couldn't have been many spare engines sitting around.

davebender said:

IMO the historical Me-210C and Me-410A are probably the best bets for a next generation German night intruder aircraft.

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Too slow. Would have been Mossie fodder in no time.

Don't think you could improve much on Ju88g (whatever Erich chose ) the Jet fighters I don't believe had the legs to play in the bomber stream, the pilots would have zipped by the targets clugging in at 200knots

The Me-410A entered service during January 1943. It had a max speed of 385mph. Me-210C max speed was about the same but the aircraft had a smaller payload.

Mosquito F Mk II. (I think this was the night fighter version operational during January 1943)
de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Max Speed. 366mph @21,400 feet.

Night intruder aircraft operated low so performance @ 5,000 feet would probably be more relevant. However I doubt contemporary RAF night fighters had a speed advantage over the Me-410A.

Statistically the night fighter pilot's worst enemy was ......himself.
The Me262,towards the end of the war was generally flown by expert,experienced,pilots. Put them in the hands of regular front line nightfighter pilots and I suspect they would attrite themselves without any help from Bomber Command. They had enough trouble landing their Ju88s and Bf110s at night.
Cheers
Steve

That's probably true. A higher then normal level of aircrew skill was required to operate at night. Mass produced wartime aircrew rarely got enough training before being thrust into combat. Bombers flying at night had the same problem.

Another reason why I think the Ar 234P would be a great candidate. Speed almost the same as the Me 262, crew of 2-3 and heavier armanment (4 x 30mm 1 x 20mm)

tomo pauk said:

Okay, since we expect 1000-bomber raids, during the night, any time in 1942 (ie. within 18-24 months after this futile air assault vs. UK) to occur vs. Fatherland, the world's best night fighter must be constructed. What would your ideal LW's NF looked like? Of course, you can 'draw' an ideal NF for 1943-44-45's bits pieces too.

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Would this ideal night fighter be fighting the "Ideal night bomber for RAF" or the "Fast bomber for USAAC"?

Two point of departure (from historical) makes for unpredictable results. You would need to run a simulation with the two sides reacting to each others decisions as they are made.

What about a Do335? But dump the front engine, replace it with radar and guns in the nose. Add a second seat - would have to be behind the pilot. Use the best DB603 version available.

Anybody got the performance numbers of the Do335 on a single engine?

Proposed two seat night fighter version of the Do-335.
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.c...-255/5681/gallery_11347/photos_1240891589.jpg


No need to delete the front engine. Nor do you need to change the firepower. 1 x 3cm Mk103 cannon and 2 x MG151/20 cannon were standard. An additional Mk103 cannon in each wing was optional.

Mk103 is a lot of heft for performance in air-air that can be matched, albeit less accurately over long ranges by the Mk108 with greater ammo loads and huge weight savings, optionally increasing firepower without an aircraft performance drop.

It's like the Soviets with their ShVak and rechambered Beresin, you could put three 2cm cannon where previously you had two for the same carry weight and shell lethality, why it was the best gun of the war was because it let you carry more than anything else in its class without impacting air combat performance. That was the whole point about the Mk108.
In the bomber destroyer scenario, like any air-air scenario the question is efficiency and the Mk108 is simply far more efficient than the Mk103.

I think Mk108/shräge musik equipped traditional night fighters like the Ju-88G and He-219 would've outshone a Mk103 equipped Do335 in the long run, despite the Dornier's ability to attack from greater range. That's really only a benefit in daylight interception, at night it's a bigger drawback that you've less than 2/3 the fire rate and half the ammo of an Mk108 setup, at a cost of three times its weight for a reduction in firepower, the only positive is a greater attack range. The glaring drawback is being a highly unstable aerial combat gun, in an Fw-190A the test pilot couldn't even keep more than two or three shells on target because the guns recoil tossed it into yaw spins.

In ground attack the Mk103 is superb in a large, heavy and stable attack fighter preferrably with widely spaced engines, like an Me-410. I don't believe wing mounted Mk103 would've been successful through the service trials process on the Do335, it was really based on a design for an antitank gun fitted to heavy twin engine fighters in a single central fuselage mount, it's sledgehammer recoil is a little rough to go putting under lightly built aircraft wings, at the very least a gun brake/recoil system should be developed for that and it's already too heavy as it is.

For my part the key here I think was in DB-603 development, which was prematurely cut short. Had the industrial situation in late war Germany been fictionally unlimited and mighty, realistically proposed variants of the DB-603 would've increased the altitude and speed performance of existing He-219 and Ju-88G night fighters which were just the thing, with as many Mk108 you can pack inside without killing performance. I think what was used couldn't be topped, but resources to develop and implement them on a strategic scale was absent. You take the same equipment used in service and put it the numbers of late war American numerical superiority, building it in a comfortable and well supplied industrial complex like the US mainland to a high quality control standard.

When US pilots flew some captured Doras postwar they commented that what impressed them the most was the ability to match Mustang performance with such poor build quality they had to be disassembled and rebuilt before the aerodrome would declare them airworthy enough to test fly! They said they only imagined what German industry could've achieved if the nation was industrially as well off as the US and a similar scale.

wuzak said:

What about a Do335? But dump the front engine, replace it with radar and guns in the nose. Add a second seat - would have to be behind the pilot. Use the best DB603 version available.

Anybody got the performance numbers of the Do335 on a single engine?

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Single engine performance of the Do 335A-0 was 348mph, I think this was only with the DB603A engine, the 475 mph DB605E version would have been even faster and the 495mph
DB603L version faster again.

For microwave radars (9cm and 3cm) Dornier was preparing the Do 335 to take dielectric rod radiator aerial array in the leading edges of the wing by making the leading edges of wood.

http://www.cdvandt.org/CIOS-XXXI-8.pdf

The Berlin series of centrimetric radars tended to use arrays of these rod aerials, they are like tube and produce a narrow beam from the tube, when arranged in an array of anything from 2 to 8 or more the beam becomes tight. Came out of the technology developed for the FuG 350 Naxos radar homers and warning devices. The so called Arado Ar 234 "AWACS" used this in a dish above the aircraft.

The Luftwaffe's night fighter needs to be BIG and probably needs 3 crew to handle all the equipment:

1 Active radar plus a tail warning radar. Active radar was being developed to have pulse doppler clutter rejection as on groaund based radars with windlaus.
2 FuBl 3 automatic blind landing instrument
3 3D autopilot
4 Passive Radar such as Naxos
5 FuG 16ZY to give distance and bearing to a becon
7 Bernhard/Bernhardine jam proof navigation becon which also provides general telemetry of the bomber strams position.
8 Large jam secure radio and telemetry system immune to interferenance.
9 Advanced IFF system eg the FuG 226 Neuling system that was replacing the compromised FuG 25a Erstling system.
10 Tail warning radar
11 backup navigation systems
12 Infrared system like Kiel.
13 system to trigger enemy IFF


Really the Luftwaffe needs two types of night fighter: a small fast unit with basic radar to attack recons and pathfinder mossies as well as enemy night fighters and a big heavily equiped version that is somewhat slower but still fast.

Gebhard Adders book on the German night fighter force notes that the Luftwaffe wanted to use telemetry data injected straight into the 3 axis autopilot to guide the interception and then have automatic firing of the guns or R100 or R100BS missiles via radar. A device called Pauke added to a microwave radar.

I agree.

Which is why I favor a Me-210C / Me-210D variant with the fuselage built specifically for the night fighter role. Interior space should be similiar to the Me-110. Not as spacious as the Ju-88 but it's adequate. Aerial performance with late war DB605 engines producing 1,800 to 2,000 hp should be superior. Fast enough that RAF path finder Mosquitoes cannot assume they are uncatchable. If mass produced an Me-210 should also be less expensive then the larger Ju-88G.

are we staying with 1942 or the wave of the future. ?

no a big NF is not the key and Mossie hunting had ended by early 1945 the 4 engine BC bomber was the threat. the 262 as stated was the craft needed with four 2cm weapons, throw out the Mk 108 short range. the Mk 103 had been thouroughly tested in air to air ops by the LW and it was a flop so no need to place in an overzsized craft like the Do 335. All the specs presented by Siegfried were to be established in the NEU 262 as I mentioned in earlier postings. the 210 and 410 series were tested as platforms for radar which failed by NJG 1 and NJG 5 and also tested for intruder ops again the two famous NJG's refused the craft and stayed with the Bf 110G-4 of the times.

the Mk 108 although a standard for LW NF's literally at close range blew Allied craft apart and because of the close range tendencies was to be phased out with a longer range version of the MG 151/20 2cm weapon with corrected flash hiders.

Indeed, my fine gentlemen: what should we build for 1942?

Were they normal light bombers or did the Luftwaffe investigate building a new Me-210 fuselage specifically for night fighter use?

the Me 410A was used, the techs could not fit the SN-2 set and the electronics could not be fitted in the cockpit with the observer/radio operator as the room was not there.

That's a standard light bomber which isn't what I am proposing.

By 1942 the Luftwaffe should plan to build at least 100 dedicated night fighter aircraft per month. Numbers great enough to warrant a purpose built aircraft such as the Ta-154 or He-219. I think Messerschmitt should enter their own night fighter design in the contest. It would share some components with the standard Me-210C but it would not be the same thing.

Bf-162 vs Bf-110
Me-155A vs Me-109G.
Me-210C vs Me-??? (purpose built night fighter aircraft)