Minimum number of shots for a kill?

[Erich]

it depended on how the pilot configured his overhead sight within the canopy and the angle that he wished for the single or twin installation. the LW NF that came with the SM installation was factory set and then as used could then be re-set deemed as for the crews wishes by the ground crews. I have some very interesting information when I conversed with NF ace P. Spoden about this and to a lesser extent ace H. Rökker and BF Karl-Johanssen to "Tino" Becker when they did use it, their latter Ju 88G-6 did not have Naxos or SM installed.

 

[Njaco]

I also just read from that same book that an investigation by the LW in 43-44 found that only about 2% of rounds fired would actually hit a target.

 

[tyrodtom]

I also just read from that same book that an investigation by the LW in 43-44 found that only about 2% of rounds fired would actually hit a target.

I wonder how they determined that? How many aircraft came down intact enough to count the holes ? Then those few would have to be tied in with the aircraft, maybe more than one, that shot it down. Then they would somehow have to figure out how many rounds each aircraft shot at each target, because some would engage more than one target.

The gun camera footage i've seen isn't clear enough to see individual bullet strikes, especially non tracer strikes.

Think maybe the Luftwaffe might have used the SWAG method ?

 

[Erich]

that does seem like a very extravagant 2 % if at all true and I don't personally by it. granted due to the extreme ranges sometimes younger crews would take on Us heavy bombers, much would of never reached the effective range, but that was to change come summer of 44 when ALL attacks were to be carried out from the rear quarter. Now with that late stages in the conflict the Us heavy bomber formations did not suffer overall in great numbers but individual bomb groups when selected did. ................

make sense ?

today's date - September 12, 1944 - is one in particular :

US 306th bg loses 8 B-17's to Fw 190A-8's from IV.Sturm/JG 3
US 351st bg loses 7 B-17's to Fw 190A-8's from II.Sturm/JG 300

US 493rd bg loses 9 plus and 1 B-17 crashed and trashed in England due to Fw 190A-8's from II.Sturm/JG 4 and Bf 109G's from III./JG 4 that provided high cover protection for the Fw's of the Geschwader.

more gastly losses on 27 and 28th of September 1944 and on two missions in October of 44 not counting the death of bombers in November of 44..........

 

[Ratsel]

I've seen a couple that I could count the hits. All in N.Africa:

Me109F w/ small machine guns 15mm shells vs P-40F ~ 2 shell hits (one on each wing) 5 or 6 mg hits to 'claim' it. - bellied into the sea.
Me109F (same) vs Spitfire Mark ?? ~ one 15mm tail hit to 'claim' - rolled onto its back and straight down into the sea.

Granted couldn't see ALL the hits, but the P-40 was about 4 seconds worth of fire and the spit about a second worth of fire.

 

[stona]

Njaco's post about a Spitfire claiming a kill when an E/A dived into the ground is even more remarkable as the Spitfire was an unarnes PR Spitfire. I remember the story and will look it up when I get home.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Capt. Vick]

If I remember correctly from Chuck Yeager's (1st) biography, the day he was credited with 5 kills at least two of them were from a pair of 109's colliding with each other trying to get out of his way!

Or what about the Russia ramming attacks? No shells expended, and some of them even managed to make it back...

 

[Njaco]

Njaco's post about a Spitfire claiming a kill when an E/A dived into the ground is even more remarkable as the Spitfire was an unarnes PR Spitfire. I remember the story and will look it up when I get home.
Cheers
Steve

Stona, thats it!! and I can't remember where I read it but thanks for backing me up!

I was suspicious about tha 2% and I'll post the passage later. Unknown how they got that figure.

 

[Ratsel]

Its the same storys as B-17/B-24 crews bailing when an Me109/Fw190 pulls in behind it. Not even a shot fired.

those russian exploits were to try and cut the tail off an a/c with the prop.. not a ram really. thats the only way they flew home.

Some Me109's were stripped of armor and all weapons save for a single MG131. They sucsessfully rammed and brought down B-17s B-24s. But make it clear those pilots had full intentions of bailing out after.

Dunno where that 2% was going from.

 

[renrich]

Ratsel, I told the story earlier about the L4s and FWs and the pilot who told the story said the FWs did try to shoot them down and one eventually lowered his gear and flaps to slow down and get a better shot just before they were bounced by the "high cover" Spits. The story was told in the book, "Flying Through Time" by James Doyle. The L4s did ditch because of low fuel.

 

[Ratsel]

thanks very much for the correct information!

 

[bobbysocks]

those russian exploits were to try and cut the tail off an a/c with the prop.. not a ram really. thats the only way they flew home.

ramming was an actual russian tactic called "taran". there were several pilots who made a habit of this and were very successful. siergiey luganski was dubbed the "Master of 'Taran' ". and since usually they were fighting over their ( russian ) territory anyways getting home wasnt an issue. i read recently that russian pilots were paid a bounty of sorts bringing down enemy planes. BUT the claims had to be verified....and that was usually done by ground forces finding the crash....the same portion of the reading hinted that since gound forces couldnt verify crashed in enemy occupied areas and thus deny them any bounty....russian pilots were leary to engage too far from thier lines.

WW II ACE STORIES check out the soviet section of this link....the rest of it is pretty good as well.

 

[Ratsel]

All that the russians tried and they could only muster 1100 claims in 1944 ( both a2a and a2g) against the Luftwaffe. So it dosn't surprise me that some resorted to ' ramming'. I mean after all, the russian were attacking USAAF fighters over Rumänien in 1944 with their jak 9s.

Thanks for the link btw.

 

[Njaco]

There were several that ranmed during the first week...22 June 1941

 

[Erich]

nearaly all rammings by the Soviets were early war.

 

[Ratsel]

I stand corrected. thank you gentlemen.

 

[claidemore]

All that the russians tried and they could only muster 1100 claims in 1944 ( both a2a and a2g) against the Luftwaffe. So it dosn't surprise me that some resorted to ' ramming'. I mean after all, the russian were attacking USAAF fighters over Rumänien in 1944 with their jak 9s.

Thanks for the link btw.

What's your source for 1100 claims by Soviets during 1944?
Don Caldwell lists 2406 Eastern Front Luftwaffe losses during 1944, (including 1849 fighters from Jan to Oct 44) no breakdown of combat or non-combat. I would think with a standard ratio of overclaiming of 2 or 3 to 1 there should be 4000 to 6000 'claims' from the Soviets during 1944?

 

[stona]

Stona, thats it!! and I can't remember where I read it but thanks for backing me up!

I can't put my hand on it either but I'm sure it was a genuine claim and the pilot was credited with it.
I'll find the details when I'm looking for something else!
Cheers
Steve

 

[Njaco]

"JV 44: Squadron of Experts" by Robert Forsyth

pg 61

"Major Wilhelm Herget......had earned a venerable reputation wthin the nightfighter arm. While Kommandeur of I./NJG 4 in June 1943 he was awarded the Knight's Cross for his 30th victory. However his greatest accomplishment came on the night of 20 December that year, when he downed eight RAF bombers in 50 minutes. One of his victories that night was claimed using only four rounds of ammunition."

 

[Readie]

Stanford Tuck split a German AA gun barrel in half with a shell....
Hows that for markmanship?
He did say 'it was a lucky shot'
and even more luckily for him the Germans who captured him found it amusing and didn't shoot him !
John