Wildcat
Major
They're the ones! Thanks Graeme 
PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
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Heinz
Captain
Very interesting wildcat and Graeme!
drgondog
Major
guys in three different sources so far, including Stars and Bars and Fighter Units of 8th, the award on October 7 for Zemke and Benoit was a shared Me 109 30 mi West of Chemnitz.
Where is the source for a 262?
Where is the source for a 262?
chuckn49
Airman
"The Messerschmitt Me 262 Combat Diary" by John Foreman and S. E. Harvey claim it was an Me 262 according to the gun cameras from Col. Zemke and Lt. Benoit's planes.
I know from talking to him that Lt. Benoit believed he had shot down an Me 262 but, and, once again from conversations with Lt. Benoit, that Col. Zemke apparently believed he had shot down the Me 262, too.
Again, according to Foreman and Harvey, the plane was identified as belonging to Kommando Nowotny. John Frisbee seems to agree with this, too.
Naturally, in the heat and confusion of battle it is not unusual for pilots to believe things that did not happen. Since I was not there, I can only rely on the memories of one of the pilots involved.
drgondog
Major
Chuck - this makes sense. By the time the award was processed by 8th FC into a Victory Credits Board Award, Zemke was a POW and yor brother probably would not have cared much one way or the other to try to correct -
I have gotten all my award types from 8th FC VCB as USAF 85 only has the award or partial award with no type, and Frank Olynyk has his from both the 8th AF VCB as a starter, then Encounter Reports as his follow up. I haven't looked at the Encounter Report
JCook
Recruit
"One a pilot from the 56th fg and the other from the 354th fg"
You're referring to Wally Groce of the 63rd FS 56th FG and Kelly Gross of the 355th FS 354th FG. Both about 40 miles north of me.
You're referring to Wally Groce of the 63rd FS 56th FG and Kelly Gross of the 355th FS 354th FG. Both about 40 miles north of me.
bf109 Emil
Airman
None...No 262 where shot down on the western front, unless an engine flamed out, or where picked off on landing by P-51's. Allied pilots may claim as so...but German records indicate no pilots bailing out or shot down prior to an engine flame-out and speed reduced to around 300 mph
- Thread starter
- #468
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
German records? Can you quote them?
Erich
the old Sage
sorry 109E you are so wrong, I have seen the P-51 gun films showing 262 pilots bailing out, JG 7 's book which I quote as a source is full of documentation of pilots being shot down NO after flame outs..................how silly
Karl Sitts
Airman 1st Class
Erich, History is written by the victors... maybe the truth lies partially in the different systems of countingkillsby those keeping the records on the different sides. - Karl
drgondog
Major
Karl - there are many documented Encounter reports with witnesses on bail outs or complete destruction - usually from high deflection shots or lucky chasing shots in which an engine was damaged - but high speed nevertheless.
Why is it important to you one way or another?
BTW, one of the holy grails ARE records from the Luftwaffe for the latter months of the war - so what is your source of facts to dispute the witnessed encounter reports and gun camera film?
drgondog
Major
You realize if you take a hit in the engine and it flames out, or is otherwise debilitated, how would the pilot 'know' what the cause was? And so, damaged, would it make sense to get out or let the chasing fighter blow the Me 262 up? If a.) the jet is chased, and b.) the jet is abandoned, it is c.) destroyed and d.) the chasing pilot gets an air to air award.
If a 109 or Mustang takes a hit in the coolant and the pilot has to bail out - is he 'downed' or should you claim he 'only got out because his engine failed'??
And, like Joe - what records are you quoting?
- Thread starter
- #473
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Ahhhh, I don't think so.
When you have combat reports from BOTH SIDES confirming what happened during a specific event and if its back up with gun camera footage, I think this goes beyond your comment....
Erich
the old Sage
Karl what utter nonsense, sorry but after seeking records on the my relatives that served in the Luftwaffe and having access to both sides records I will say NOT. ! the gun cams prove too much plus first hand accts from the US pilots and the German crews flying the jets
I really wish those that are most interested in the 262 combats would quit believing the myths surrounding just how fast and uncatchable the jet was, guess I've just been researching this jet vs the prop jobs since the 1960's seeing all types of so called factual proofs for too many years.
I go back to JG 7 author M. Boehme who mentions time and again
I really wish those that are most interested in the 262 combats would quit believing the myths surrounding just how fast and uncatchable the jet was, guess I've just been researching this jet vs the prop jobs since the 1960's seeing all types of so called factual proofs for too many years.
I go back to JG 7 author M. Boehme who mentions time and again
drgondog
Major
try these records - the 262's in the gun camera film are dead, one is low altitude on final approach with gear down (unsporting?) the rest are ones caught at high altitude.
I think this is the right link - the 262 stuff in middle and end of sequences
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O9leOmDDGk
bf109 Emil
Airman
I will have to have someone translate Gallands German Biography again, but will pass on...
a video of 262 that has a surprise to B17 crew...nice if never viewed before
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzdcUK-S4yY
or if on youtube try this header...Messerschmitt Me-262 Schwalbe/Sturmvogel
bf109 Emil
- Thread starter
- #477
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Galland may of had his opinions, the fact remains there is compelling evidence to show that Me 262s were indeed shot down at high altitudes with speeds over 300 mph and with both engines burning.
Erich
the old Sage
sorry emil but that you tube vid was crock pieced together from different ww2 vids and German propaganda film of the jet over a German airfield, that just isn't going to back up your claim(s) at all man.
Gallands only first hand experience was in JV 44 and he did not have a real feel of fighting against US fighters nor the US Heavies of the 8th AF as his unit took on the 9th...........
Gallands only first hand experience was in JV 44 and he did not have a real feel of fighting against US fighters nor the US Heavies of the 8th AF as his unit took on the 9th...........
bf109 Emil
Airman
yes in the seat of a fighter...as jv 44 was an elite group he formed of top german aces flying jets armed with rockets and was created in march of '45...prior, he directed or controled luftwaffe fighter while in either a 110 or 210 later from a safe distance, targeting broken boxes, or one most vulnerable, while head of general de lagerfleiger...as for video being a crock, ok, i am not a production or film producer expert, nor knowledge able in that field...much the same as Spielberg bogus clip of Marshall"s speech (Saving Private Ryan) movie about Mrs. Bixby...as his researching should have known she had only 2 kids, one in the north, and one in the south...and...upon receiving Lincolns letter, she tore it up because she dispised him...as falsified extra sons to gather insurance benefits from army death payment to wifes or mothers...
