B-17engineer
Colonel
I was watching a show "Weaponology, Waffen SS" and they said the main reason for a curved barrel attachment on the Mp 44 was to spray down tanks incase infantry crawled onto them......
Pzkpfw V Panther its variants.
- Thread starter CharlesBronson
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SoD Stitch
Banned
Well , if the tank belong to the Viking division , it is tecnacally not a " stupid fritz"since all the man in the 5 SS were non-german foreign voluntaries.
If you mean by "stupid fritz" a German-born citizen, then you are correct; Hitler had this idea that all racially-related peoples (i.e.: Germans and Scandinavians) should join forces against the "Slavic hordes" of the East. There were several racially-diverse Waffen-SS divisions, one of which was the Wiking division, composed of Danish and Dutch "volunteers". There were several such Waffen-SS divisions, composed of foreigner volunteers; people who were considered racially "compatible" with the ultimate goals of the Third Reich.
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- #64
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thank you.
For every use actually, shooting inside tanks, shooting from the corner, over the edge of a trench, inside a bunker, etc, The late ausf F variant used a MP 44 in the hull instead a MG 34.
Danish and Dutch ? okay then... stupid Laudrup and stupid Cruif.
- Thread starter
- #65
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Pantherstelllung, Panther turrets as pill-boxes
During the Italian campaign the Germans mounted Panther's turrets on concrete pillboxes for anti-tank defence.
This received several names such as Pantherturm, Pantherstellung ( Panther emplacement); PantherOstwallturm ( Panther turret for east defenses)
Some were installed for saving the vehicles while providing a cheap but powerful anti-tank capability, but the most were expecially designed ones with increased 40 mm roof armor to whithstand heavy artillery shells, and heavier 70mm side armor. Most of the Italian inland was mountanous: by blocking a few passes with assault guns and anti-tank pill-boxes (as the Panther's one) the Germans were able to contain the menace with their thinily spread forces.
Although the majority of this Panther Ostwallturm saw employement in the East, in the effort of building strong German defensive positions along along a line going from Narva to Crimea. As war progressed many German cities were named felde platze (fortress) and turrets (both appositely designed ones or from damaged tanks) were used to strengthen these improvised positions.
The turrets, with their low profile, resulted quite impressive to Allies commands and an evaluation of the Panther turrets employed as pill-boxes by the British Mediterranean theatre high command (circa August 1944) expressed in these terms (extract from T. Jentz's Panther variants):
Panther turrets are not of course AFV but their impact on the course of AFV affairs is thought to be sufficiently important to justify a few words. Panther turrets were first met in the Hitler line and were in fact the salient features round which the other defences were built up. They are actual tank turrets, though perhaps of a lightly earlier vintage than those now on tanks. They are mounted on a turret ring fitted on an armoured box, built up of welded plate about 63mm (2.5 inches) in thickness. The whole of this box is sunk into the ground and earth is banked up close to the turret so that it is first cleared by the gun at depression and yet offers some additional protection to the base of the turret skirts.
Pantherstellung before being emplaced in dug out position:
Traverse is by hand only and no power is supplied. Access to the turret is either by access doors in the turret itself or from underneath the armoured box by means of a steel ladder communicating with a deep dugout. It is obvious that the crews live in the turret and dugout permanently, as electric light is supplied and there are other signs of continuing operation.
This system of static defence was backed up by SP equipment and ordering anti-tank guns. In front of each position there was a graveyard of Churchills and some Shermans; perhaps eight tanks to a gun and all within 200 metres of it. This is, at present, the cost of reducing a Panther turret and it would see to be an excellent investment for Hitler. Obviously these turrets are most formidable unless each one is dealt with by a carefully prepared and co-ordinated attack.
The turrets are almost invisible till they fire and, when located, there is very little to shoot at and, unless the turret happens to be pointing elsewhere, it will not be penetrated either by 75mm or 6 pounder guns. HE fire is obviously useless. In all cases where there was enough of the turret left to diagnose the method of destruction, penetration of the turret side had been effected. One Churchill crew who destroyed one with their 6 pounder say that the turret blew up immediately it was hit. This was presumably due to the ammunition, since a large quantity is stored. If anti-tank defence is to consist of these turrets in the future it cannot but emphasise the need for a proportion of tanks to carry a really effective AP weapon, though it is not by any means accepted that attack by tanks is the best and correct method of dealing with them.
During the Italian campaign the Germans mounted Panther's turrets on concrete pillboxes for anti-tank defence.
This received several names such as Pantherturm, Pantherstellung ( Panther emplacement); PantherOstwallturm ( Panther turret for east defenses)
Some were installed for saving the vehicles while providing a cheap but powerful anti-tank capability, but the most were expecially designed ones with increased 40 mm roof armor to whithstand heavy artillery shells, and heavier 70mm side armor. Most of the Italian inland was mountanous: by blocking a few passes with assault guns and anti-tank pill-boxes (as the Panther's one) the Germans were able to contain the menace with their thinily spread forces.
Although the majority of this Panther Ostwallturm saw employement in the East, in the effort of building strong German defensive positions along along a line going from Narva to Crimea. As war progressed many German cities were named felde platze (fortress) and turrets (both appositely designed ones or from damaged tanks) were used to strengthen these improvised positions.
The turrets, with their low profile, resulted quite impressive to Allies commands and an evaluation of the Panther turrets employed as pill-boxes by the British Mediterranean theatre high command (circa August 1944) expressed in these terms (extract from T. Jentz's Panther variants):
Panther turrets are not of course AFV but their impact on the course of AFV affairs is thought to be sufficiently important to justify a few words. Panther turrets were first met in the Hitler line and were in fact the salient features round which the other defences were built up. They are actual tank turrets, though perhaps of a lightly earlier vintage than those now on tanks. They are mounted on a turret ring fitted on an armoured box, built up of welded plate about 63mm (2.5 inches) in thickness. The whole of this box is sunk into the ground and earth is banked up close to the turret so that it is first cleared by the gun at depression and yet offers some additional protection to the base of the turret skirts.
Pantherstellung before being emplaced in dug out position:
Traverse is by hand only and no power is supplied. Access to the turret is either by access doors in the turret itself or from underneath the armoured box by means of a steel ladder communicating with a deep dugout. It is obvious that the crews live in the turret and dugout permanently, as electric light is supplied and there are other signs of continuing operation.
This system of static defence was backed up by SP equipment and ordering anti-tank guns. In front of each position there was a graveyard of Churchills and some Shermans; perhaps eight tanks to a gun and all within 200 metres of it. This is, at present, the cost of reducing a Panther turret and it would see to be an excellent investment for Hitler. Obviously these turrets are most formidable unless each one is dealt with by a carefully prepared and co-ordinated attack.
The turrets are almost invisible till they fire and, when located, there is very little to shoot at and, unless the turret happens to be pointing elsewhere, it will not be penetrated either by 75mm or 6 pounder guns. HE fire is obviously useless. In all cases where there was enough of the turret left to diagnose the method of destruction, penetration of the turret side had been effected. One Churchill crew who destroyed one with their 6 pounder say that the turret blew up immediately it was hit. This was presumably due to the ammunition, since a large quantity is stored. If anti-tank defence is to consist of these turrets in the future it cannot but emphasise the need for a proportion of tanks to carry a really effective AP weapon, though it is not by any means accepted that attack by tanks is the best and correct method of dealing with them.
B-17engineer
Colonel
Great job CB! thanks
- Thread starter
- #67
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
No problem, here no got more images of the Pantherstellung.
Near Cassino, Italy.
In Berlin, this seems to be a makeshift using ausf A turret, note the cuppola, attachment that teorically the Pantherturm shouldnt use.
In Breslau, east Prussia ( today Wroclaw, Poland), note the huge amount of expend ammo
Other in Berlin, destroyed by internal explosion.
In Rimini, Italy, note the Churchill tanks in the background destroyed by the pantherturm, this stellung was destroyed by one or two hits visibles in the right side.
Near Cassino, Italy.
In Berlin, this seems to be a makeshift using ausf A turret, note the cuppola, attachment that teorically the Pantherturm shouldnt use.
In Breslau, east Prussia ( today Wroclaw, Poland), note the huge amount of expend ammo
Other in Berlin, destroyed by internal explosion.
In Rimini, Italy, note the Churchill tanks in the background destroyed by the pantherturm, this stellung was destroyed by one or two hits visibles in the right side.
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Matt308
Glock Perfection
Fantastic CB
See below the Panther D displayed in the dutch city of Breda just on a street corner. Very strange, you walk in the city and suddenly face this tank. They say it's the only Panther D-series left in the world, don't know if it's true or not
- Thread starter
- #70
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thanks you Matt.
Damn !! that is a nice picture Marcel. the only tanks emplaced as monuments here are those annoying Shermans
More images of the ausf A.
Zimmerit equipped Panther of the Waffen SS in "ambush" cammo, This tank was in a forest in France.
The initials of the infamous Leibstandante Adolf Hitler unit are visible in the turret side. I am not quite sure but the vehicle seems to be a Panzerbefehlwagen ( command tank) because the "R" only assigned to platoon or section commanders.
Inside view of a Panther ausf A cuppola. The commander looking trough the periscopes.
Damn !! that is a nice picture Marcel. the only tanks emplaced as monuments here are those annoying Shermans
More images of the ausf A.
Zimmerit equipped Panther of the Waffen SS in "ambush" cammo, This tank was in a forest in France.
The initials of the infamous Leibstandante Adolf Hitler unit are visible in the turret side. I am not quite sure but the vehicle seems to be a Panzerbefehlwagen ( command tank) because the "R" only assigned to platoon or section commanders.
Inside view of a Panther ausf A cuppola. The commander looking trough the periscopes.
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As far as I know, it was captured by the Poles when they liberated Breda and used in battle for a short time. Then they donated it to the city of Breda as a memorial and it's been there ever since. It's recently restored as it was in bad shape.
Good stuff CB, nice picture Marcel.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
5th SS Division Wiking also had Norwegians, Swedes and Finns, which later formed 11th SS Divison Nordland.... These are the two SS Divisions that I'm most interested in....
Awesome thread CB, very educational....! Looking forward to the same on the StuG! 8)
Awesome thread CB, very educational....! Looking forward to the same on the StuG! 8)
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
- Thread starter
- #77
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Thank you lads, interesting history of polish Panther in Holland, I knew so far that the poles used some Panthers when the Armia Krajowa made the Warsaw uprising, no idea that they also captured and used some in North Western Europe.
The Panzerbefehlswagen Panther Sd.kfz 267/268
The Panzerbefehlswagen (armored command vehicle) was the obviously command variant of the Panther. the diferences with normal vehicles were teh elimination of coaxial machinegun MG 34 and its emplacement sealed by and armored plug.
Supply of 75 mm ammunition for the main gun was also reduced from 84 to 64 projectiles.
The remaining internal space was used to install 2 more powerful UHF and VHF Funkgerät ( radio set) and a map table. Its visible differences were the side aditional aerial and a sternantenne ( star antenna) in hull, rear of the turret. These equipment could keep the Section commander or platoon commander linked with other tanks, the panzergrenadiers, artillery batteries and aircrafts at maximum ranges of 45 km ( with good weather)
Panzerbefehlwagen Panther ausf A, this tank had reveiced a hit in the gun mantlet near the TZf 12 but survived without too much trouble.
Panzerbefehlwagen Panther ausf A,vehicle owned by the Oberst(colonel) Willy Langkeit, Panther ace in the eastern Front.
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- #78
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Close up to the turret in Command Panther.
The shorty General Hasso Von Manteuffel onboard a Typ 166 Kubelwagen, the guy in the Panzerbefehlswagen Panther is the Oberst Langkleit, both officers belong to the Gross Deutschland armored division. ( Langkeit was regiment commander and Manteuffel was Divisional commander)
The shorty General Hasso Von Manteuffel onboard a Typ 166 Kubelwagen, the guy in the Panzerbefehlswagen Panther is the Oberst Langkleit, both officers belong to the Gross Deutschland armored division. ( Langkeit was regiment commander and Manteuffel was Divisional commander)
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- #79
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Panther ausf D with panzer IV ausf H turret.
Another weird variant.This vehicle seems to be build from an Bergepanther chassis married with a Pz IV turret. it was used only by the Heavy tankhunters Battallion 653 in Poland and Ruthenia (Belarus) in 1944.
Is not clear if the turret actually had a revolving movement or it was bolted to the chasiss.The Sch Jagd Pz Abt 653 had a interesting collection of rare vehicle including Porsche Tigers and captured T-34 with flak guns.
Another weird variant.This vehicle seems to be build from an Bergepanther chassis married with a Pz IV turret. it was used only by the Heavy tankhunters Battallion 653 in Poland and Ruthenia (Belarus) in 1944.
Is not clear if the turret actually had a revolving movement or it was bolted to the chasiss.The Sch Jagd Pz Abt 653 had a interesting collection of rare vehicle including Porsche Tigers and captured T-34 with flak guns.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Now what would be the rationale for that, CB? Didn't the IV have a 75mm gun? Was this because of lack of material (ie 88mm turret)?
