special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,686
- May 13, 2018
Also Cadillac flat head V-8.
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I thought we were discussing claims. If you want to include beliefs, being a fanatic would lead him to press on attacks when others were more bothered about self preservation, wouldnt it? If he destroyed just 250 tanks that would make him bang average for overclaiming in air to air claims. While post D-Day the claims for tanks destroyed were massively more than the actual tank losses, no one mentions the politics of those pilots.There cannot be enough references to Rudel's political beliefs, he was a dedicated Nazi, even after the war. His record has always been in question because of his close ties with Hitler and Nazism. At his funeral there were over 200 dedicated Nazi believers who gave the Nazi salute. A better man to honour would be Anton Korol, a JU87G ace with a record more genuine.
Exactly and due to this being known to all parties involved, at e.g. Luftwaffe from Goering down to Luftwaffe Flotten Commanders, to wings-group-squadron leaders right down to the pilots themselves almost everyone contributed towards these false/inflated claims.The Nazi hierarchy and media controllers had a vested interest in 'Aces'.
They commonly inflated claims off their own bat for home consumption and Rudel would would have been no exception to this.
Sorry if my post came across that way as it was firmly in the useful propaganda camp other than the pilots own claims area.This sounds more like propaganda than commentary. The Nazis lied if it suited their purposes. So did the Allies. It was war, and these things happen, even today as well.
But to say that all records and everything they said is false is just plain old wrong. Records of production of aircraft, munitions, ships, submarines, etc. have never been shown to be deliberately wrong. Most Luftwaffe aces that have gone through victory vetting come out about the same as most Allied aces who go through vetting. They manage to have 50 - 90% of their claims confirmed. And this by people who can't even agree among themselves what a victory actually is. In my eyes, they likely mostly claimed what looked to them at the time like a victory.
You are making a mistake flying straight and level in enemy territory for 30 seconds. Doing that in battle to confirm a possible kill would be the worst rookie mistake and might easily be fatal.
I don't mind discussing aerial victories and I have no love or sympathy for Nazi politics, but I do mind saying that since they were Nazis, everything they ever said or claimed is automatically a lie. That's sounds like venom talking, not discussion.
It was the same in the RAF, the claims of Bader's "Big Wing" were known to be massively over what was shot down, since they engaged the enemy over land and sometimes over London itself, the shot down aircraft just didnt exist. Initially some squadrons didnt make individual claims, but the media and the public wanted heroes, if you cant find a hero you make one.The Nazi hierarchy and media controllers had a vested interest in 'Aces'.
They commonly inflated claims off their own bat for home consumption and Rudel would would have been no exception to this.
Not many? I would have said many.Not many.
Some American tanks were equipped with the Continental R-670 or the Continental R-975.
Then again, many were equipped with diesel engines like the GM 6-71 as well as being equipped with gasoline engines like the Ford GAA or Chrysler A57.
however rudel was a greatest bomber pilot in the history.
What do you think?
Rudel's "kills" were also accrued with his Ju87D as a dive-bomber, too.Interesting conversation, and I have no time for the political side of the conversation, so lets just look at some of the other aspects.
The Pilot - Supposed to be a high skilled pilot (seems to be held up in available resources and reading), certainly experienced (you don't fly that many sorties without picking up some knowledge) and working in a target rich environment.
The Airframe - Ju-87G, slow, stable gun platform, highly manoeuvrable in low levels, capable of fulfilling the task asked of it.
The Gun - The 3.7cm gun on the Ju-87G was more than capable of getting through the both the turret roof armour and the engine deck of a T-34 (and probably the same for the KV-1, IS-1/IS-2 as well), thus we have a 3.7cm Tungsten core AP round arriving at around 2400-2600fps, penetrating the armour and entering either the turret or the engine. It'll also happily remove a track or drive wheel.
Mechanics of damage - the 3.7cm shell entering the turret will unlikely go all the way through, so we now have a not so high velocity round (still around the 1200-1500fps), bouncing around the interior, looking for either a way out or something to stop it..........so it's now bouncing around with lots of nice things to hit, crew mainly, but hydraulics, ammo, gun breech etc. Penetrate the engine deck, and a Tungsten core shell and mechanical items don't mix well.......Track/wheel damage, powerful enough to either remove the track or jam/remove the drive wheels
However I suppose it all comes down to the classification of destroyed - are we talking a catastrophic loss of the tank (burnt out, armour heat compromised - gold standard - what many will only consider), a tank knocked out - penetrating hit, a tank stopped (mobility kill), or even a tank stopped when the crew bailed out (not so flash seeing a couple of crew hit by said tungsten core bouncing around). I suspected the bulk of his claims would be the last three........ with very few of the former.
If we apply the gold standard version of a tank destroyed then his numbers may be around the 20 -30 mark if that, if we apply a military thought to it (i.e tank attacking, tank struck - crew abandons/ tank not moving and in some cases tank not observed to move until recovered) then the numbers will be significantly higher. His actual numbers will likely remain unknown as you'll have to try to match sortie areas with Russian losses in that area (not just losses but also damaged tanks, including those have just lost a track or drive wheel for each unit). I suspect there will be a degree of over claiming, however if we use the latter three categories for destroyed then I suspect his number will be in the 350-400 plus.
Buz