Rudel's tank kill count is correct?

[special ed]

Also Cadillac flat head V-8.

 

[pbehn]

There cannot be enough references to Rudel's political beliefs, he was a dedicated Nazi, even after the war. His record has always been in question because of his close ties with Hitler and Nazism. At his funeral there were over 200 dedicated Nazi believers who gave the Nazi salute. A better man to honour would be Anton Korol, a JU87G ace with a record more genuine.

I thought we were discussing claims. If you want to include beliefs, being a fanatic would lead him to press on attacks when others were more bothered about self preservation, wouldnt it? If he destroyed just 250 tanks that would make him bang average for overclaiming in air to air claims. While post D-Day the claims for tanks destroyed were massively more than the actual tank losses, no one mentions the politics of those pilots.

 

[WARSPITER]

The Nazi hierarchy and media controllers had a vested interest in 'Aces'.

They commonly inflated claims off their own bat for home consumption and Rudel would would have been no exception to this.

 

[Jagdflieger]

The Nazi hierarchy and media controllers had a vested interest in 'Aces'.

They commonly inflated claims off their own bat for home consumption and Rudel would would have been no exception to this.

Exactly and due to this being known to all parties involved, at e.g. Luftwaffe from Goering down to Luftwaffe Flotten Commanders, to wings-group-squadron leaders right down to the pilots themselves almost everyone contributed towards these false/inflated claims.

 

[GregP]

This sounds more like propaganda than commentary. The Nazis lied if it suited their purposes. So did the Allies. It was war, and these things happen, even today as well.

But to say that all records and everything they said is false is just plain old wrong. Records of production of aircraft, munitions, ships, submarines, etc. have never been shown to be deliberately wrong. Most Luftwaffe aces that have gone through victory vetting come out about the same as most Allied aces who go through vetting. They manage to have 50 - 90% of their claims confirmed. And this by people who can't even agree among themselves what a victory actually is. In my eyes, they likely mostly claimed what looked to them at the time like a victory.

You are making a mistake flying straight and level in enemy territory for 30 seconds. Doing that in battle to confirm a possible kill would be the worst rookie mistake and might easily be fatal.

I don't mind discussing aerial victories and I have no love or sympathy for Nazi politics, but I do mind saying that since they were Nazis, everything they ever said or claimed is automatically a lie. That's sounds like venom talking, not discussion.

 

[WARSPITER]

This sounds more like propaganda than commentary. The Nazis lied if it suited their purposes. So did the Allies. It was war, and these things happen, even today as well.

But to say that all records and everything they said is false is just plain old wrong. Records of production of aircraft, munitions, ships, submarines, etc. have never been shown to be deliberately wrong. Most Luftwaffe aces that have gone through victory vetting come out about the same as most Allied aces who go through vetting. They manage to have 50 - 90% of their claims confirmed. And this by people who can't even agree among themselves what a victory actually is. In my eyes, they likely mostly claimed what looked to them at the time like a victory.

You are making a mistake flying straight and level in enemy territory for 30 seconds. Doing that in battle to confirm a possible kill would be the worst rookie mistake and might easily be fatal.

I don't mind discussing aerial victories and I have no love or sympathy for Nazi politics, but I do mind saying that since they were Nazis, everything they ever said or claimed is automatically a lie. That's sounds like venom talking, not discussion.

Sorry if my post came across that way as it was firmly in the useful propaganda camp other than the pilots own claims area.

It was 'official' headlines I was referring to.

Conversely, Hartman had actual observers turn up at one stage to actively audit him for a set time as his claimed amounts
were thought to be too high to be credible.

 

[GregP]

No worries here, Warspiter.

I have made any number of posts over 15+ years that, after re-reading a bit later, didn't quite convey exactly what I was intending to convey. Several seemed to be outright hostile toward someone, though I didn't intend that when I first posted. It's all good.

These days, I tend to look at things a bit more before posting, though possibly the above is a bit more harsh than I wanted it to be! Ya think?

All I was saying is that Luftwaffe pilots and WWII German records aren't all false just because they were Nazis. That doesn't mean they aren't false, just that being a Nazi doesn't automatically make them all false.

Cheers to you!

 

[WARSPITER]

No worries mate, I tend to type lazily at times and my post should have said sometimes inflated rather than commonly inflated
which would have made it come across in line with your point which is correct.

 

[pbehn]

The Nazi hierarchy and media controllers had a vested interest in 'Aces'.

They commonly inflated claims off their own bat for home consumption and Rudel would would have been no exception to this.

It was the same in the RAF, the claims of Bader's "Big Wing" were known to be massively over what was shot down, since they engaged the enemy over land and sometimes over London itself, the shot down aircraft just didnt exist. Initially some squadrons didnt make individual claims, but the media and the public wanted heroes, if you cant find a hero you make one.

 

[Ovod]

Not many.

Some American tanks were equipped with the Continental R-670 or the Continental R-975.

Then again, many were equipped with diesel engines like the GM 6-71 as well as being equipped with gasoline engines like the Ford GAA or Chrysler A57.

Not many? I would have said many.

18,000 M4 Shermans were powered by the Continental R975 as well as around 4,000+ M3 Lees. 13,000 M3 Stuarts used the Continental R-670. there were other less common tank types which used adapted aero engines for propulsion such as the M22 Locust.

I am referring to actual tank types – but there were also thousands of other weapon systems such as the various self-propelled guns and the M18 tank destroyer which were also aero-plant powered.

Maybe there wasn't a majority of actual tanks with aero engines – but it was certainly getting close to it – I can't see why you cannot use the word "many"…

 

[GrauGeist]

18,000 out of nearly 50,000 M4s produced.
Also, the Continental R-975 was a variant of the Wright R-975, so while the Continental was based on an aircraft engine, it was never used in any aircraft.

The Continental R-670, on the otherhand, was used both in tanks and aircraft.

The fact of the matter, though, is that out of ALL American armored vehicles produced, radial power plants were not in the majority.

 

[ww2restorer]

Rudel's claims have ben questioned for years. It is also strange that apart from being high up in the Nazi party he was the only person to be awarded the Knights cross of the Iron Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds. 6 set were made however the only 1 set awarded to Rudel. The 5 remaining sets are in American hands. After the war Rudel was a staunch supporter of the Nazi party operated out of Argentina.

 

[GregP]

Never thought he was a "good guy." But I HAVE thought he was an exceptional attack pilot.

I wonder why Erich Hartmann was never awarded this decoration. His airmanship and success were basically at the top of the pilot heap.

 

[GrauGeist]

I suspect (and this is just my observation) that Rudel's accomplishments had a higher impact than Hartmann's because the Red Army was seen as a higher threat to Germany than the Red Air force.

Ruffer's awards for his ground attack victories were the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross and the German Cross in Gold (he already had earned the Iron Cross 2nd and 1st class).

 

[GregP]

Likely as not, you are correct, Graugeist. It's just that the fighter pilots were usually awarded a lot of glory, and Hartmann was on top.

Makes me wonder, but not too much ... it WAS a long time ago and all the players have passed.

 

[ww2restorer]

I agree, Hartmann was deserving of the award. His biggest disadvantage is the most obvious, he wasn't a Nazi. nor a member of the party.

 

[Macandy]

however rudel was a greatest bomber pilot in the history.
What do you think?

Rudel? Nah

 

[Snautzer01]

And now we can discuss if a bomb has to be dropped by the pilot and not by the bombadier to earn greatest bomber pilot.

 

[Buz101]

Interesting conversation, and I have no time for the political side of the conversation, so lets just look at some of the other aspects.

The Pilot - Supposed to be a high skilled pilot (seems to be held up in available resources and reading), certainly experienced (you don't fly that many sorties without picking up some knowledge) and working in a target rich environment.

The Airframe - Ju-87G, slow, stable gun platform, highly manoeuvrable in low levels, capable of fulfilling the task asked of it.

The Gun - The 3.7cm gun on the Ju-87G was more than capable of getting through the both the turret roof armour and the engine deck of a T-34 (and probably the same for the KV-1, IS-1/IS-2 as well), thus we have a 3.7cm Tungsten core AP round arriving at around 2400-2600fps, penetrating the armour and entering either the turret or the engine. It'll also happily remove a track or drive wheel.

Mechanics of damage - the 3.7cm shell entering the turret will unlikely go all the way through, so we now have a not so high velocity round (still around the 1200-1500fps), bouncing around the interior, looking for either a way out or something to stop it..........so it's now bouncing around with lots of nice things to hit, crew mainly, but hydraulics, ammo, gun breech etc. Penetrate the engine deck, and a Tungsten core shell and mechanical items don't mix well.......Track/wheel damage, powerful enough to either remove the track or jam/remove the drive wheels

However I suppose it all comes down to the classification of destroyed - are we talking a catastrophic loss of the tank (burnt out, armour heat compromised - gold standard - what many will only consider), a tank knocked out - penetrating hit, a tank stopped (mobility kill), or even a tank stopped when the crew bailed out (not so flash seeing a couple of crew hit by said tungsten core bouncing around). I suspected the bulk of his claims would be the last three........ with very few of the former.

If we apply the gold standard version of a tank destroyed then his numbers may be around the 20 -30 mark if that, if we apply a military thought to it (i.e tank attacking, tank struck - crew abandons/ tank not moving and in some cases tank not observed to move until recovered) then the numbers will be significantly higher. His actual numbers will likely remain unknown as you'll have to try to match sortie areas with Russian losses in that area (not just losses but also damaged tanks, including those have just lost a track or drive wheel for each unit). I suspect there will be a degree of over claiming, however if we use the latter three categories for destroyed then I suspect his number will be in the 350-400 plus.

Buz

 

[GrauGeist]

Interesting conversation, and I have no time for the political side of the conversation, so lets just look at some of the other aspects.

The Pilot - Supposed to be a high skilled pilot (seems to be held up in available resources and reading), certainly experienced (you don't fly that many sorties without picking up some knowledge) and working in a target rich environment.

The Airframe - Ju-87G, slow, stable gun platform, highly manoeuvrable in low levels, capable of fulfilling the task asked of it.

The Gun - The 3.7cm gun on the Ju-87G was more than capable of getting through the both the turret roof armour and the engine deck of a T-34 (and probably the same for the KV-1, IS-1/IS-2 as well), thus we have a 3.7cm Tungsten core AP round arriving at around 2400-2600fps, penetrating the armour and entering either the turret or the engine. It'll also happily remove a track or drive wheel.

Mechanics of damage - the 3.7cm shell entering the turret will unlikely go all the way through, so we now have a not so high velocity round (still around the 1200-1500fps), bouncing around the interior, looking for either a way out or something to stop it..........so it's now bouncing around with lots of nice things to hit, crew mainly, but hydraulics, ammo, gun breech etc. Penetrate the engine deck, and a Tungsten core shell and mechanical items don't mix well.......Track/wheel damage, powerful enough to either remove the track or jam/remove the drive wheels

However I suppose it all comes down to the classification of destroyed - are we talking a catastrophic loss of the tank (burnt out, armour heat compromised - gold standard - what many will only consider), a tank knocked out - penetrating hit, a tank stopped (mobility kill), or even a tank stopped when the crew bailed out (not so flash seeing a couple of crew hit by said tungsten core bouncing around). I suspected the bulk of his claims would be the last three........ with very few of the former.

If we apply the gold standard version of a tank destroyed then his numbers may be around the 20 -30 mark if that, if we apply a military thought to it (i.e tank attacking, tank struck - crew abandons/ tank not moving and in some cases tank not observed to move until recovered) then the numbers will be significantly higher. His actual numbers will likely remain unknown as you'll have to try to match sortie areas with Russian losses in that area (not just losses but also damaged tanks, including those have just lost a track or drive wheel for each unit). I suspect there will be a degree of over claiming, however if we use the latter three categories for destroyed then I suspect his number will be in the 350-400 plus.

Buz

Rudel's "kills" were also accrued with his Ju87D as a dive-bomber, too.