Saving Private Ryan - Tank Busters

[plan_D]

You're kidding me, KK. The under-armour of a Tiger or Panther would fall easily to the bombardment of several 20 mm rounds. This isn't one round we're talking about, this is a mass of high velocity 20 mm rounds.

The A-10 only carries a 30mm cannon under it's nose but it makes up for it with the mass amount of lead those 8 barrels can throw out in a short space of time.

The amount of 20mm rounds makes up for their lack of penertration. The rpm wasn't enough to penertrate the top armour of the Tiger or Panther but the weak underside would be punched through in no time.

Remember, armour gets weaker with each hit! It's like standing on an undamaged can then tapping it, what could hold you before crumples away because the structure has been weakened.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I agree with KK.

 

[lesofprimus]

Unfortunatly, ue agreeing with the wrong guy... There are gun camera footages showing this very thing happening... U can see the ricochettes bouncing off and around the tank, and then boom!!!!

Rounds penetrated the soft under armor and combusted the rounds stored inside..... Not a very nice way to go.........

There are several other members here in good standing who will verify these claims, including PlanD...

 

[Soren]

Eeerrr, what are we talking about here ?

How would rounds from an aircraft 'directly' hit the underside of a tank ?

If the tank is standing on a brick or cement road, the rounds 'could' bounce off the road and up onto the tanks underbelly. But by striking the road the rounds loose well over 60-70% of their energy, making it impossible for them to penetrate the underbelly, even if there are multiple hits.

The Gun-cam footage of tanks exploding in a shower of sparks are not "Tigers" being pounded, but smaller and thinner armored Panzers who are being hit directly on their weak top armor by high-power 20mm AP rounds.

 

[plan_D]

It is well known throughout the armoured forces from World War 2 and the Allied air forces that rounds could be bounced up underneath the enemy tank.

I will admit that .50 cal had no chance of destroying a Tiger, even from underneath. A barrage of 20mm however would, a constant battering received to a small area would eventually collapse the armour because with each hit the armour would weaken, then eventually it would cave in.

That was often how tanks were destroyed by anything, very rarely were German tanks destroyed in one hit by anything. It was the constant battering from enemy shells that eventually collapsed the armour.

 

[lesofprimus]

I will admit that .50 cal had no chance of destroying a Tiger, even from underneath. A barrage of 20mm however would

Yup.......

 

[Maestro]

I'm not an expert in tanks, but I agree with Plan_D. What he said sounds logical.

 

[lesofprimus]

The Gun-cam footage of tanks exploding in a shower of sparks are not "Tigers" being pounded, but smaller and thinner armored Panzers who are being hit directly on their weak top armor by high-power 20mm AP rounds.

Two completely different footages......... I know the difference between 20mm and .50 cal impacts on armor, and can readily tell the difference between a panzer and a tiger.... But pointing it out was the correct thing to do....

 

[Soren]

Plan_D a 20mm Hispano AP shell could accounting for the extra momentum of the plane, penetrate the Tigers top-armor with a direct hit, but never the bellly ! As for reaching the belly of the tank, the projectile would have to hit hard pavement first wich takes off almost all the energy of the pojectile, reducing its penetrative effectiveness to that of a normal .30 cal AP round. And I think we can agree that nomatter how many .30 cal rounds you fire at a Tiger, it won't penetrate !

Fact is the guns from an aircraft can't hit the belly of a tank 'directly', wich is what is needed if you ever want to penetrate 25mm of armor with a 20mm gun.

 

[plan_D]

I'm not saying this happened often, Soren. The AP 20mm shell could never be brought down to the effectiveness of a .30 cal. The sheer weight alone makes it a more lethal.

It would take a barrage of 20s to collapse the underbelly of a Tiger. That is the only way it would, a constant barrage of heavy lumps of lead shattering against the same small spot. The steel is weakened and, eventually it collapses.

I imagine a few passes would need to be made but it was done.

 

[Soren]

I'm not saying this happened often, Soren. The AP 20mm shell could never be brought down to the effectiveness of a .30 cal. The sheer weight alone makes it a more lethal.

Plan_D a .30 cal AP round would penetrate approx. 9mm of 0 degree armor at 200y, wich is more than what a 20mm Hispano round will after bouncing off hard pavement !

Plus no'one here will be foolish enough to tell me that after hitting hard pavement at a 45 degree angle (More or less), the round would bounce up a hit the belly of the tank at a 0 degree angle. No it would hit the belly like a round hitting sloped armor, thus further reducing the penetrative ability of the round.

It would take a barrage of 20s to collapse the underbelly of a Tiger. That is the only way it would, a constant barrage of heavy lumps of lead shattering against the same small spot. The steel is weakened and, eventually it collapses.

Im sorry but I disagree, only the penetration of the Tigers 25mm top armor was possible, not the belly. And how would rounds hit the same spot again and again ? Every gun has dispersion, and when put on a propeller-driven plane the dispersion becomes even bigger, making it impossible to hit the exact same spot again and again.

 

[KraziKanuK]

That is some shooting to have 20mm hit in a very small area. Hitting at an acute angle, even the top armour, the armour would be equivelent to 3-4" thick.

 

[lesofprimus]

I see that u are trying to argument the point, but the reality of it is that it has happened before, and pilots have purposely tried to do it, Allied AND Axis.... Maybe statisically it doesnt add up, but the fact of the matter is that in after action reports, pliots have claimed ground tank kills in this very manner...... We as older members have discussed this situation in the past.....

 

[Soren]

In wartime, pilots say and do crazy things sometimes, but that doesnt necessarily make them true or feasible.

 

[lesofprimus]

So i guess all 22 times that i have read an actual report of this happening, all those guys were making up the same thing, all at different times throughout the war???????

Gimme a fuck 'in break dude....

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i must say this is a very interesting discussion.........

and sorry i aint been on for the last two nights, been out doing ten tors, 40 miles over dartmoor in two days.............

 

[Soren]

So i guess all 22 times that i have read an actual report of this happening, all those guys were making up the same thing, all at different times throughout the war???????

22 times ? can you show me the documented claims ? as I would find them highly interesting.

Gimme a f**k break dude....

There's no need to get aggressive.

 

[lesofprimus]

Im always aggressive......... ALWAYS..........

And i cannot show u the docs, as they were on microfiche, in an Achive at the Smithsonian in Washington DC... And yes, they were extremely interesting... I did take notes off them though...

But please dont infer that I come on here making stuff up either, as that constitutes a slap in the face, and I dont react real well to that kind of criticism, as my record with my compatriots here will validate....

And besides, other members here also have this same info I do.... We arent conspiring against u buddy........ Its a fact....

Although rare, it did happen....

 

[Soren]

Im always aggressive......... ALWAYS..........

And i cannot show u the docs, as they were on microfiche, in an Achive at the Smithsonian in Washington DC... And yes, they were extremely interesting... I did take notes off them though...

But please dont infer that I come on here making stuff up either, as that constitutes a slap in the face, and I dont react real well to that kind of criticism, as my record with my compatriots here will validate....

And besides, other members here also have this same info I do.... We arent conspiring against u buddy........ Its a fact....

Although rare, it did happen....

Im not denying it happened against smaller panzers with their much thinner armor, but I am denying it happened to Tigers. (Btw very few Tiger's fell victim to air-attacks)

 

[lesofprimus]

The only real way to stop a Tiger from the air was with a rocket into the engine compartment.......

I do recall one specific report in which a Major or Lt. Col (Not sure which now) claimed to have shot up 3 Tigers with 2 large explosions for a total of 2 tanks claimed...

He made 4 passes before his ammo was expended... He used the words "ricochetted" and "bounced" in this report and reported it as being the reason for the destruction of the 2 Tiger Tanks...

Sorry I cannot give more details, but my memory is alittle fogged after all these years.