GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Yorktown's radar detected Hiryu's inbound flights.
She was able to direct a fighter intercept, stopped SBD recovery directing them up as CAP instead and for all that, she still took hits.
US strategy and tactics for Midway if IJN has radar, CIC and radios in the Zeros
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
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She was able to direct a fighter intercept, stopped SBD recovery directing them up as CAP instead and for all that, she still took hits.
- Thread starter
- #102
Admiral Beez
Major
Yes. I've done my very best to convey that radar, radios, CIC and CAP discipline will not guarantee the IJN carriers are not hit. I'm not sure what else I can say to get that across.
My expectation is that radar, working aircraft radios, CIC and CAP discipline will give the Kido Butai a better chance. That's all. For example, the SBDs will not approach undetected.
Instead of loitering on CAP, more of the Zeros can be left fueled, armed and ready on deck with pilots resting until the CIC calls for a scramble. Here they are warming over their engines, waiting for the scramble horn.
Val and Kate strikes can be readied and launched during periods of clear skies. The IJN will have advance warning of incoming strikes so to secure their ships. Retreating USN strikes can be tracked so to suggest the direction of their own carriers. Radar, radios, CIC and CAP discipline make all this possible, and improve the odds for the IJN.
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Conslaw
Senior Airman
Ok, if you are talking in the hypothetical. In the real world the Zeros were rarely if ever vectored by radio; however I fully accept the hypothetical that IF the Japanese had functional radios, effective radar and command and control, things would have been much worse for the Americans.
Conslaw
Senior Airman
Yes, the "A Team" pilots from Hiryu were able to make things count once they got through.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
My comrades please.
Nagumo did not have a crystal ball and tarot cards.
He was but a man. Not divine.
No attack was sent regardless or could be sent regardless of the weapons chosen.
Only Hiryu attacked later. At 1054 but that was only Vals.
At 1331 the Kates took off. 10 Kates. One of the Kates was from Akagi. Hiryu has lost 9 Kates from the Midway raid.
Nagumo did not have a crystal ball and tarot cards.
He was but a man. Not divine.
No attack was sent regardless or could be sent regardless of the weapons chosen.
Only Hiryu attacked later. At 1054 but that was only Vals.
At 1331 the Kates took off. 10 Kates. One of the Kates was from Akagi. Hiryu has lost 9 Kates from the Midway raid.
- Thread starter
- #106
Admiral Beez
Major
Well yes, that's the entire point of this thread, and we're in the What'If forum.
Conslaw
Senior Airman
This hypothetical is useful in thinking about how inexperience and technological deficiencies affected all of the carrier-equipped naval powers. Great Britain had their HMS Eagle caught and destroyed by a battleship early in the war. The Lexington had immature damage control systems. Japan had a grossly incapable fighter control system combined with ineffective anti-aircraft defenses, oh, and they had immature damage control systems too.
- Thread starter
- #108
Admiral Beez
Major
If the IJN has radar, radios, CIC and CAP discipline I wonder if their choice of aircraft would be different. You don't need the Zero's agility if you're being vectored onto a target and fighting as a team rather than as one. In this case rate of climb and top speed would be more important. Something closer to a longer range Mitsubishi J2M rather than the A6M.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Just watched it, it's worth a view. Christoph is pretty thoughtful.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
They already had the Zero in the pipeline, and it was a great 1941 fighter. Supporting infrastructure and a coherent doctrine would only make it better. I doubt better radios/radar, CIC would prompt a change in production in the short or medium term.
As per shattered sword the decks were kept clear if A6M's were airborne to allow them to re arm quickly, the 20mm was the primary weapon and pilots would land as soon as it's ammunition was gone and reload. I will have to read the book again but allowing the CAP to operate caused the strikes to be delayed and the planes were caught below decks when the bombs started hitting. The IJN used AA tracers to direct the CAP to enemy aircraft as well as flags more than radio's, I don't think radar is going to improve their odds in that situation, if you want improvement the whole operation has to work as a system like Chain Home, not piecemeal which is what the IJN had.
- Thread starter
- #112
Admiral Beez
Major
Giving the Kido Butai radar, working aircraft radios, CIC and CAP discipline is essentially a system like Chain Home. Radar detects incoming aircraft, CIC assesses the radar report and allocates fighters to intercept and calls for a scramble. Once aloft flight leaders are contacted by radio and vectored onto their targets. Sounds like Chain Home to me.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
You're allocating targets to fighters who work independantly.
To make that work, you're going to need to train the pilots to work as a team.
Typically, the senior pilots took the prime targets and the pilots that were lower in the pecking order held back until an opportunity presented itself.
Fix that issue first.
To make that work, you're going to need to train the pilots to work as a team.
Typically, the senior pilots took the prime targets and the pilots that were lower in the pecking order held back until an opportunity presented itself.
Fix that issue first.
- Thread starter
- #114
Admiral Beez
Major
I'm trying, I really am. I've already said that the Kido Butai has radar, working aircraft radios, CIC and CAP discipline. The latter point, CAP discipline means pilots are now deferring to CIC and acting as a team rather than breaking ranks and chasing anything they see.
I think I'm going to step away from this thread for a while as I just keep repeating myself. Have a great weekend all. Cheers.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
It's not that you keep repeating yourself, but the points being brought up are valid.
Each IJN carrier group acted indepently and the fighter groups fought by hierarchy and not as a team.
Providing the IJN with contemporary radar and radios would a huge step up, yes, most certainly.
But getting the fighter groups to organize and fight in a cohesive western fashion would be like herding cats.
Each IJN carrier group acted indepently and the fighter groups fought by hierarchy and not as a team.
Providing the IJN with contemporary radar and radios would a huge step up, yes, most certainly.
But getting the fighter groups to organize and fight in a cohesive western fashion would be like herding cats.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
One word.
Radar Picket Destroyers.
Oh wait that's 3 words.
Anywho that's the winning formula. Gives you early warning and time.
Radar Picket Destroyers.
Oh wait that's 3 words.
Anywho that's the winning formula. Gives you early warning and time.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Why did Hiryu split the Vals and Kates up? Why not go for all in?
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Most likely because they had to secure from general quarters and could only arm/prep one type at a time.
Remember that the fleet was in the process of preparing for a strike on Midway when sh*t hit the fan, so Hiryu had to switch over to anti-shipping ordnance (like the other three carriers) and had to decide on which strike elements would be the primary.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,638
- Dec 6, 2006
HMS Glorious. HMS Eagle was sunk by a submarine.
Reluctant Poster
Tech Sergeant
- 1,638
- Dec 6, 2006
I don't think any navy in 1942 could do as well as the RAF in 1940. That being said if it works well enough to save even 1 of the 3 carriers lost initially the outcome of the battle is going to be very different.
