Was Hartmann a liar?

[Shadar_Logoth]

The guy who wrote that article is an idiot

simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

Oh, so, frenchman is = to idiot?, nice argument.

But D Khazanov is not french, is one of the best East Front historian, he wrote many books, some of them with Yef Gordon and it have access to german and soviet ww2 files.

USA helped a lot to the European Freedom, but remember that 70% of german loses were in the Eastern Front, I repeat, 70% of all the german WW2 losses. Only in Kursk, they lost near 1 million soldier, only 1 battle.

And please, do not insult nations

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!

Agreed

And why then did they charge him of shooting down more than 300 Soviet a/c ?

Hartmann was NEVER a liar ! And I would without doubt even dare to say that a whole 95% of his confirmed kills are 'actual' kills.

---------------------------

And for Shadar,

Don't ever believe these Soviet dream-stories that try to degrade German scores, as they are all dirty lies !

The German confirmation system was the most strict and most accurate of WW2 ! On the other hand the Russian confirmation system was as inaccurate as almost can be, and relied heavily on unreliable partisans !

The Soviet ace Ivan Kozhedub doubtedly got even half of his kills

For example: Some soviet aces with scores from 30-40 kills, didnt even get 10 kills in reality ! All this has been established by looking in German loss-records, which 'again' are the most accurate of WW2.

Btw I actually remember Charles presenting a site commenting this Russian "fantasy-writer"=Khazanov: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

Now who's the liar ?

In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !

------------------------------

As sidenote: The W-Allies had a comparable confirmation system to the German one, but a little less strict by comparison.

Sure?

Remember BoB (Battle of Britain):
RAF only shoot down 65% of their claims
OKL shoot down only 30% of their claims
Who's the liar?.

Don't believe the german propaganda also, where is the documents which proves that 352 kills, just when the Germans lost the iniciative.
But 1 more thing, how many of you read that article?

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

In any case there's one thing you can be VERY sure of; The German confirmed kills are MUCH MUCH MUCH more accurate than the Soviet ones !

Explain me how to be so accurate behind the enemy lines, when the russian were in offensive.

Many myths here, but few facts. Many years of "cold war" I see.

 

[me262]

i read somewhere that before the allied landings, stalin ask the allied powers to open a new front, i.e. the landing in normandy, cos he was not sure if the could stope the new german summer offensive.
also , rusio got a LOT of war material, including tanks, ammo, planes , vacum tubes and more important truck, which the russian lack

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

i don't want to go down this raod again, the last moron that came here with that atitude got kicked off........

This has nothing to do with attitude, its just fact.

The U.S. played a HUGE part in defeating the Nazi's !

The British, Canadian, french etc etc... troops all fought equally well and with just as much determination as the U.S. troops, but there's only so much one relatively small country can do.

Without the U.S. involvment there would be no D-day, no landing in Italy, no huge scale bombing of German industry = German victory in Russia.

And I dont think I need to tell you what would happen if Russia was defeated, now do I......... Britain would fall within the next year ! (If not sooner)

The USA made a great effort in defeating germany, but soviets made THE BIGGEST EFFORT. I repeat again, Germany lost the 70% of his military and economic power in the east front, germany produced more planes than never in 1944 (and tanks also)... see the data about DDAY and battles in East Front like Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kiev, Leningrad or the Balatton offensive.

Lean and leasing from USA was the 4% of the soviet production, it's an important help (which was paid, of course), but is not so important to say that without USA germany would have won the war.

Imagine Germany with 7 million soldiers more (casualties in East Front) with all the equipment lost in the East, do you think that DDAY would have been the same?

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

i read somewhere that before the allied landings, stalin ask the allied powers to open a new front, i.e. the landing in normandy, cos he was not sure if the could stope the new german summer offensive.
also , rusio got a LOT of war material, including tanks, ammo, planes , vacum tubes and more important truck, which the russian lack

Yes, a landing that never happened until 1944, when Germany was pretty near to be defeated...

All the equipment from the Lean and Leasing was about 4% used by soviets.

 

[mosquitoman]

The Russians simply overpowered the Germans on the Eastern front, Britain held on so there was a base to launch offensives into mainland Europe and America supplied everyone with everything- from men to Liberty Ships. Each of the main Allies deserve praise for different things

 

[CharlesBronson]

The guy who wrote that article is an idiot

simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

Incorrect

Actually it was wrote by the russian "historian" Dimitri Kazhanov, wich is not an idiot , but a clever guy, wich handles and modificate the truth with maquiavelic effect.

I dont blame it, must be hard that a single german pilot blasted away so many fellow countryman.

Aniway, he failed in his purpose of make Hartmann a mediocre pilot simply because he wasnt.

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

look at this
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/German_tank_production_during_World_War_II
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Soviet_tank_production_during_World_War_II
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/German_aircraft_production_during_World_War_II

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

Or look at this and compare:
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Battle_of_Normandy
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Battle_of_Kursk
only 2 examples.

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

The guy who wrote that article is an idiot

simply, is a frenchman
and as i can understand many frenchys are sore with 1/2 the world,specialy germany and the usa
i understand the german part, but the usa? , they must be gratefull that today they do not speak german, thanks to the usa

Incorrect

Actually it was wrote by the russian "historian" Dimitri Kazhanov, wich is not an idiot , but a clever guy, wich handles and modificate the truth with maquiavelic effect.

I dont blame it, must be hard that a single german pilot blasted away so many fellow countryman.

Aniway, he failed in his purpose of make Hartmann a mediocre pilot simply because he wasnt.

He did not say that Hartmann was a poor pilot, he says that is one of the best WW2 pilots, but overclaimed the kills. That's common in all the WW2, Why not Hartmann?. Yes, because Germans did not used propaganda, of course Nazis did not use propaganda against those "inferior" eslaves.


I see that all this issue is a "faith" question.

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

The Russians simply overpowered the Germans on the Eastern front, Britain held on so there was a base to launch offensives into mainland Europe and America supplied everyone with everything- from men to Liberty Ships. Each of the main Allies deserve praise for different things

I agree, war was won by ALLIES.

 

[Udet]

*YAWN*

 

[mosquitoman]

So it's taken us 2 pages to say that no Hartmann wasn't a liar and that all the Allies deserve equal praise, wasn't it worth it

 

[Shadar_Logoth]

So it's taken us 2 pages to say that no Hartmann wasn't a liar and that all the Allies deserve equal praise, wasn't it worth it

Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar, I believe that he overclaimed his air kills.
But not all the Allies deserves equal praise, in Pacific War USA had 95% effort, in European War URSS had 70% effort (german loses in east front). Allies won the war, but not with the same numbers and importance.

But the discussion was about Hartmann, so, if all of you say that is not a liar, could you show me any evidence, file, investigation about his 352 kills?.
I'm not a religious guy, so, I have not faith.

When a country loses a plane ina war, it's registered, so, it's very easy to check german claims vs soviet loses and have an aproximation of the real numbers. And Im not talking about propaganda (nazi or soviet), I'm talking about LW files and VVs files, both accesible to the historians and investigators, like Korean War files.

Regards

 

[mosquitoman]

I'm not going to argue because I don't know where to get all that data, because of that I'm taking the middle ground. I'm not saying he overclaimed on purpose but in the heat of battle a plane seen streaming glycol could have been classed as a kill but actually make it back to a friendly airfield and land

 

[Soren]

Sure?

Remember BoB (Battle of Britain):
RAF only shoot down 65% of their claims
OKL shoot down only 30% of their claims
Who's the liar?.

You are, cause that right there is a lie

Don't believe the german propaganda also, where is the documents which proves that 352 kills, just when the Germans lost the iniciative.
But 1 more thing, how many of you read that article?

I've read it, and its pure bull**** (Excuse me).

But you obviously didnt read the article I presented you, wich proves just how big a liar Khazanov is, and how worthless his article on this subject is !

Here, I present you it again, now read it very carefully: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

See... He cant even get the numbers right !

Historical Archives are open (paying) in Germany and Russia, in Russia since 1992, many writers and studients could see that files. I'm not talking about military secrets, only historical files.

Russian loss records are not open to the public, period. And even if they were they werent worth anything, as the Russians didnt bother writing losses up in any detailed way, wich is why their loss archives are notoriously inaccurate.

The USA made a great effort in defeating germany, but soviets made THE BIGGEST EFFORT.

The Russians no doubt lost more men than any other country in the war, meaning it cost them the most in men and material as a single country, but, the combined casualties of the W-Allies and damage inflicted on Germany by them, more than makes up for that.

I repeat again, Germany lost the 70% of his military and economic power in the east front, germany produced more planes than never in 1944 (and tanks also)... see the data about DDAY and battles in East Front like Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk, Kiev, Leningrad or the Balatton offensive.

Let me put it like this: That data is "WRONG", and your also forgetting so many things i don't even bother mentioning them as it would take ages.

Lean and leasing from USA was the 4% of the soviet production, it's an important help (which was paid, of course), but is not so important to say that without USA germany would have won the war.

Again your totally forgetting the German point of view ! If the Germans were only fighting the Soviets wich only had Britain as help, the Soviets wouldn't stand a chance !

Think about it, if the U.S. werent involved the Germans were free of daily mass bombing raids, and two BIG fronts ! More than enough to secure a sure victory in the east without doubt !

Imagine Germany with 7 million soldiers more (casualties in East Front) with all the equipment lost in the East, do you think that DDAY would have been the same?

7 million soldiers !!! You really dont know your numbers !

Here's the facts:

During WW2 German casualties were: 3.25 million Soldiers dead.(75-80% Eastern front) / 2.44 million Civilian dead. Total= 5.29 million. (Even the Total number isnt even close to your highly exaggerated number !)

Russian casualties: 12-13 million Soldiers dead. / 17 million civilian dead. Total= 29-30 million.

W-Allied casualties: 1.67 million Soldiers dead. / 6.44 milllion civilian dead. Total= 7.11 million.

Now may I ask, where did you get those outrages loss figures of yours ?

In any case you might as well stop it Shadar, cause your so horribly wrong about this subject !

---------------------------------------------

Let me remind you of some facts, now you may ignore them (I dont care), but now I showed you them and there's no disputing them now:

During WW2 the Germans had the most accurate and most strict confirmation system in the world.

The Russians had a confirmation system which was one of the very worst in the world, being only equaled by the Japanese system !

Now think about this.

 

[reddragon]

I know this is off topic but it looks to me like the Russians overran German positions in part by simply using massed numbers of troops. While the Germans put a great deal of emphasis on the quality of their weapons, the Russians were able to churn out massive numbers of weapons with less emphasis on quality, since they didn't seem to care if the troops came back or not. I've seen stories of how the Russians would take men who had already been put behind bars and force them to interlock their arms and walk across minefields.

My father saw the same thing in Korea. The Chinese would attack in huge numbers and it didn't matter how superior our weapons were, the men would run out of ammunition or become exhausted and the Chinese would still come. When you're willing to sacrifice large numbers of troops, any position can at some point be overrun. That's simply what the Russians did because they simply didn't care.

They did make some fine weapons, like the T-34, but they still had no concern for the individual soldier. The officers had a choice, win or face execution themselves.

I saw an interview with a Russian woman who killed a German general (can't remember either name, sorry) and she told about how she was to be awarded a medal and while in Moscow to receive it was warned that they were planning on executing her after she got it so she went into hiding. If you're willing to execute those you parade as heros, that doesn't say much for all the others who are unknown to the public.

 

[Soren]

Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar,

Sorry, but you don't have even a single shred of evidence that he was

And neither has anyone else !

 

[Erich]

go do some frickin research SL. There is a book on JG 52 already written as well as some exhaustive research already in print by German author Bernd Barbas. Funny how many say Erich H. is full of crap and have no basis for their claiming so. JG 52 was the top scoring Jagdgeschwader with over 11,000 kills. Hartmanns wingman was also an Ritterkreuz winner with over 110 kills to his credit. Guess he's full of crap as well..........in fact all the Luftwaffe eh ?

JG 51 with over 9000 kills'
JG 54 with over 9500 kills'.

IV.Sturm/JG 3 with over 450 alone ! yes they are all liar's...............

geez I could state further but why, go to Tony Woods listing whcih is directly from Freiburg and find Eastern front victories from 1941 till December 1944, you can get almost all of his kills plus the area of engagement included.....