Was Hartmann a liar?

***Yawn....... Good info Soren......

AS near as i can make out from documentation, over 250 of Hartmans claims were verified by film......

Guys:

Sorry to tell you this, but why on earth are you bothering following the game of this individual?

It would be better if you leave him alone making the thread all by himself trying to "convince" no one but himself Hartmann was a liar. Let him shout in the desert alone.


By just reading some of his ruddy ridiculous hogwash you can learn either how ignorant or brainwashed -or both- this individual is. So the Wehrmacht lost "1 million" men at Kursk? No shit! That is about the entire German OB for such battle, so this enlightened poser is telling something like no German soldier survived Kursk. I mean, making comments and clarifications to such comments is pointless.

You better retreat to the pit you came from before you receive some rough treatment here.

You are so full of shit the stench is unbearable here. Something is rotten around here and right there wherever you are located.

If there is an opean liar here it would be this individual. So russian files are "open to the public"? So you are convinced present day "democratic" Russia has opened their files to the "public". Wow! A perfect exercise of transparency exercised by the neo democratic Moscow bureaucracy. Who the hell do you work for? Who pays you? How much did you got paid to go out and make a fool out of yourself?

As I said before, i am just way too familiar with these post bolshevik keepers of the truth whose comments have common patterns; the following two are some of them and this rings the bell of the soviet propaganda:

(i) Lend Lease was 4 percent of soviet production.

But of course; well, "only 4 percent"...such a tiny useless help. "With or with out you". So LL had no effect. 4 percent? Well, perhaps the USA and Britain, in an act of good will and sincere friendship, decided to sent small gifts to the communists, the reason? Well, just for the fuck of it. Or perhaps it was a case of very bizarre charity for the soviets did not need it to fight Germany and perhaps the allied fridge was so full they decided to give some of their stuff away.


(ii) The idea of highly accurate and customized soviet records of their own losses of men kept during the war is implied in their comments.

Trying to make it appear work for researchers "couldn´t be easier". Want to know if any pilot -soviet or foe alike- shot down what, when and where? Well, all you have to do is consult our "files" -gladly open for the public- and you will have the answer!

Soren brought up a precious point: the partisans involved in the process of confirming soviet victories!!!! I will be damned. The ultimate guaranty of accuracy. That is as naive as it gets. It would have been better for them soviets to hide that part of their process and to keep it to themselves.


Do not research that much for you might be surprised Hartmann not only shot down 352 enemy planes but perhaps a few more.

JG 52...read some names: Rall, Batz, Graf, Barkhorn, Grislawski, Trenkel, Wolfrum, Dutmann, Steinhoff, Hartmann...names for the history of military of aviation who finished the war...the VVS never came nowhere near in dealing with JG 52 did you know?

Likewise, go and make a "free" consult of soviet files "gladly open" to the public and you might find the bulk of the soviet aces never shot down what their official scores say. Understand? Inflated records for most of them.

cheddar cheese said:

To be honest Soren has a point.

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Yeah, he does.

It's pretty simple that France had her arse saved by the U.S., since the early Allies failed to hold her in 1939.

It should be also mentioned that France did in some points participated in the VVS campaigns by their Normandi-Njiemen squadron. This could explain...
The russian government does not allow investigation of their VVS losses for the second world war, it plays a major role for them.
I believe that Hartmanns victories are to a very, very high degree correct. Just keep soviet anti Hartmann measures in mind: He was accused in the destruction of 346 soviet airplanes and found guilty in this. This can be counted as an official soviet statement.
However, the VVS is often seen very unbalanced. Actually it flew twice as many combat sorties as the opposing Luftwaffe on the eastern front and all in all an equally number of combat sorties of both, UK and US airforces. It also has an equally number of losses (like RAF+USAAF). The efforts of the Luftwaffe are impressive because they did less combat sorties but more damage to them. However, the surviving of the SU in 1941-43 was highly important for the allies and the help of the allies (particularly in this timeframe) was key factor in surviving of the SU. LL doesn´t include weapons only, keep in mind that ~65% of the granary in 1942 came via Land lease...

I have just two points here.

The 'early' Allies didn't hold France in 1940 but Britain didn't have to stick her neck out to try and help France. France had the second biggest army in Europe, second to the Soviet Union, she should have been able to defend herself!

The other point, in Stalingrad 6th Armee was lost. With it was lost 300,000 men captured or dead. The Soviet Union made a huge deal about that and so do many historians to this day.
Who knows what happened in Tripoli? In case you didn't know, the British 8th and 1st Army, with the US 7th Army captured 250,000 German troops. Along with the 8th Army costing the German forces 100,000 before U.S involvement. As well as the over 200,000 Italian troops.

The Italians might not have been the greatest army in the world but an enemy soldier with a gun is still a threat. We were fighting the AXIS not Germany. The Allies captured more Axis troops in Africa than the Soviets did in Stalingrad but Stalingrad gets ALL the praise and Africa none...it pisses me off.

Anywho, simple answer to the thread starting question, no.

Agreed, Plan_d. One thing I would like to add is that if a reasoable, accountable number of Soviet dead could be ascertained, how many were killed by their own people? Remember, those who retreated were shot by their own Kommisars.

Shadar_Logoth said:

FLYBOYJ said:

If Hartman was a liar, why did the Russians put a 10,000 ruble price on his head? Why did local VVS units label his aircraft "The Black Devil," why did the Russians imprison him after the war and try to charge him for the deaths of close to 500,000 Soviet citizens? Hardly the treatment for an 80 kill ace. And as mentioned, his wingmen confirmed 90% of his kills. How can someone make such an outrageous statement just boggles my mind! The guy who wrote that article is an idiot, I bet never served in an air force and never flew or worked around an aircraft. An "armchair" historian who sits on his brains!

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That's a myth, Stalin purged many people without many evidence using false acusations, why do you believe that with hartmann was true? Do you have any docummented information about that reward?.

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YES - It was in the transcripts of his trial. The Soviets tried to charge him for the deaths of 500,000 people saying that he killed over 300 Russians in air-to-air combat then they tried to say that his aircraft carried 1400 rounds of ammunition, each round killed 1 Russian - TOTALLY INSANE!

This has been documented by the West German Government and was also mentioned in his book "The Black Knight."

Udet said:

Guys:

Sorry to tell you this, but why on earth are you bothering following the game of this individual?

It would be better if you leave him alone making the thread all by himself trying to "convince" no one but himself Hartmann was a liar. Let him shout in the desert alone.

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You know Udet, I should of read your post before I answered him!

You are, cause that right there is a lie

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No, there isn't, thats' a fact.

I've read it, and its pure bull**** (Excuse me).

But you obviously didnt read the article I presented you, wich proves just how big a liar Khazanov is, and how worthless his article on this subject is !

Here, I present you it again, now read it very carefully: http://members.aol.com/falkeeins/Sturmgruppen/hartmannclaims.html

See... He cant even get the numbers right !

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Yes, I have read it, but it only showns opinion, not data, so, is so true as Pope divinity, you believe or not. So, show me any evidence that Khazanov lies or, if you can't, at least leave a bit for the doubt.

Russian loss records are not open to the public, period. And even if they were they werent worth anything, as the Russians didnt bother writing losses up in any detailed way, wich is why their loss archives are notoriously inaccurate.

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You should add "those inferior russians" . Why do you afirm that ? any evidence again?. NO, you haven't, so, stop assume things that are not true. Every plane is taken account by any Air Force, vvs included. IF there is a mission with 30 IL2 and only get back 10, those numbers are taken account.

The Russians no doubt lost more men than any other country in the war, meaning it cost them the most in men and material as a single country, but, the combined casualties of the W-Allies and damage inflicted on Germany by them, more than makes up for that.

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And Germany loses were about 70% in East front, 30% rest of the fronts. Russia lost 9 million soldiers (27 million people with civilians), Germany near 7 million soldiers.

Let me put it like this: That data is "WRONG", and your also forgetting so many things i don't even bother mentioning them as it would take ages.

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I have time, beguin. That data is TRUE, every historian knows it, every good historian, I mean. Live with it, wetern fron only afected Germany in a 30%, included Africa. Yo do not need t investigate so much to get that data.

Again your totally forgetting the German point of view ! If the Germans were only fighting the Soviets wich only had Britain as help, the Soviets wouldn't stand a chance !

Think about it, if the U.S. werent involved the Germans were free of daily mass bombing raids, and two BIG fronts ! More than enough to secure a sure victory in the east without doubt !

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No, the German point of view is very similar, they know that they lost the war in Soviet Union, you should read some survivors.
Bombings raids? Are you talking of Bombing Raids?. Germany produced more planes, tanks and other military components in 1944 that any of the other year. and remember, first GErman defeat was in 1941, near Moscow. No War with USA then.
The problem with Germany was a bad strategy from the beguinning, in that way, they woulkd never defeat Soviet Union, the same as Napoleon.

7 million soldiers !!! Laughing You really dont know your numbers !

Here's the facts:

During WW2 German casualties were: 3.25 million Soldiers dead.(75-80% Eastern front) / 2.44 million Civilian dead. Total= 5.29 million. (Even the Total number isnt even close to your highly exaggerated number !)

Russian casualties: 12-13 million Soldiers dead. / 17 million civilian dead. Total= 29-30 million.

W-Allied casualties: 1.67 million Soldiers dead. / 6.44 milllion civilian dead. Total= 7.11 million.

Now may I ask, where did you get those outrages loss figures of yours ?

In any case you might as well stop it Shadar, cause your so horribly wrong about this subject !

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Your facts, not THE facts, it's a difference.
Russian soldiers were "only" 9 millions, not 12
Not only Germans fighted in Soviet Union, Axis forces included Rumanians, Hungarians, Italians... But you say:"During WW2 German casualties were: 3.25 million Soldiers dead.(75-80% Eastern front)". It's enough for me 75-80% lost in East Front. That is a fact.

During WW2 the Germans had the most accurate and most strict confirmation system in the world.

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That's a MYTH and that was not true, only german lovers say that. Propaganda Nazi was the most powerful in the war. They used a more accurate system in Western front, but EVERY country overclaim his victorys, and GErman much more than Allies, as you can see in BoB. Tell me how they could confirm a victory in East Front fighting behind enemy lines, Who confirmed shoot down at land?. NOBODY. You have to believe Hartmann word, and his wingman, of course friends. Show me any credible data about that, any Luftwaffe documentation about that accurate system with Hartmann. MYTHS, MYTHS and more MYTHS

The Russians had a confirmation system which was one of the very worst in the world, being only equaled by the Japanese system !

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Another MYTH, russians were killed for lie, Stalin and NKVDA were not the guys whi liked pilots lying about his victorys. You forget that VVS claims were over own terrytor mainly, they see the plane fall.

Of course in this theme always the same, Russian were inferior (like Nazis thought), German superior, russians were lyers, German men of Honor... blablabla.

Demonstrate that, show me evidences and I will believe you.

lesofprimus said:

***Yawn....... Good info Soren......

AS near as i can make out from documentation, over 250 of Hartmans claims were verified by film......

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Where is those films?, Where is that documentation?. It's very easy demonstrate this

my one posting which you obviously have not read gives you a full account of Hartmann's victories and the unit he served with.

quit babbling your mouth off and go do some serious research before you come on this forum and start executing the forum members....

Soren said:

Shadar_Logoth said:

Sorry, but I don't have any evidence that Hartmann were not a liar,

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Sorry, but you don't have even a single shred of evidence that he was

And neither has anyone else !

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No, neither of us has evidences, only thoughts and some data collected from books, which are different depending from the author. So, I creatd a post asking if he was a lier, you say not, you say Khazanov or me aer liars, so, show me any evidence.

Guess he's full of crap as well..........in fact all the Luftwaffe eh

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If you read history, every country overclaim their kills, VVS, LW, RAF... everybody.

Erich said:

my one posting which you obviously have not read gives you a full account of Hartmann's victories and the unit he served with.

quit babbling your mouth off and go do some serious research before you come on this forum and start executing the forum members....

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Yes, but where is the source, where is the documentation about those kills, where is the LW files about this... could you shown me?

He was accused in the destruction of 346 soviet airplanes and found guilty in this. This can be counted as an official soviet statement.

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That is a myth, show me source of that, show me any document, soviet files about those accusations... some info more than the myth.

But of course; well, "only 4 percent"...such a tiny useless help. "With or with out you". So LL had no effect. 4 percent? Well, perhaps the USA and Britain, in an act of good will and sincere friendship, decided to sent small gifts to the communists, the reason? Well, just for the f**k of it. Or perhaps it was a case of very bizarre charity for the soviets did not need it to fight Germany and perhaps the allied fridge was so full they decided to give some of their stuff away.

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I have said that 4% is important (but LL was not a gift, as you should know), but is not determinant and is not the cause why URSS defeated Germany in East Front.

do a search for Jagdgeschwader 52. C'mon you come here and start rustling the bushes with the know-it all atitiude making quite sure that this Dimitri guy has all the statistics of the Soviets as well as the German units that hartmann fought with, compared the histories and day by day events and then proclaims the truth that the Ritterkreuz winner is lying aobut his kills.

Do not ask any more of us to show proof, you need to hunt the information for yourself on your own. I do not care for posers and you are typlifying one by the starting and commenting negatively on this thread. Want answers; the REAL truth then start searching realistically. you have been given a start with the link provided from my friends/mine webpages on the book article written in the French magazine. Jean yves Lorant is a French history authority and you can take his comments as fact as he has done serious German research for the past 35 years. Hans Ring has the Luftwaffe confirmations in his personal holding and he is consulted daily through the Fliegergehmeinschaft in Deutschland for these confirmation by serious authors and research historians from all countries.

If you Read Solzhenitsyn's Archipelago Gulaj, you should know that not many people would like to Lye Stalin...

Here's an old story link from Pravda. If this isn't Soviet acknowlegment of Hartman's wartime record, I don't know what is!

http://newsfromrussia.com/society/2002/12/13/40785.html