Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?

International Intelligence History Association
BBC - History - Double Cross - MI5 in World War Two
MI5 | 4 September 2007 releases: German intelligence agents and suspected agents

Above are some links I have found concerning Abwehr during World War 2. Soren contends that Abwehr was never penetrated comprimised or their operations during World War 2 were always successful. This maybe true in Soren's eyes but unfortunately Soren would be pretending this is a perfect world. This is a falsehood by any means. Yes Abwehr did have spectacular successes during World War 2 until it was absorbed into the SD and SS Gestapo Intelligence Wing after the attempted assasination of Hitler.

Abwehr did have spectacular successes in Holland. Capture of 2 British MI6 Agents. And Abwehr succeeded in penetrating French Resistenace Movement in France during the early occupation years by the Germans in France.

Abwehr also suceeded in placing agents in MI6 and Sabotage work in the USA. But Abwehr also had glaring failures and the above links prove that Abwehr like any Intelligence Network Organisation had failures. Failures such as 13 Abwehr Agents being hanged in Britian during World War 2. Abwehr Agents upon being captured in Britian all but one turned into double agents (One Abwehr Agent commiting suicide).

But Abwehr had its communication Centre in Paris bugged by the French Resistence late in 1943. Abwehr had Code Books captured by the British Intelligence Services. British Intelligence turned all but one of Abwehr Agents in Britian to be double agents. Suspicions are that Abwehr may have known about these former Abwehr Agents now double crossing Abwehr but it appears it maybe speculation. But what is known these turned Abwehr Agents working for British Intelligence. Provided the Germans with false information from 1941 to 1945. This included false information fed to Abwehr on the proposed invasion of France in 1944. So Soren in claiming Abwehr was perfect Intelligence Organisation who were never penetrated comprimised or fooled by their Allied Enemies was and is a to BIG A CALL to make. In the World of Espionage and Spying Soren there isn't one Organisation similar to Abwehr who hasn't been comprimised or fooled betrayed. Or any such organisations who haven't had MOLES or had been betrayed internally. Abwehr was never 100% water tight as you may assume Soren. And by the way Soren I have plenty of other links on Abwehr and the Brandenburgs on my favourites. But I suggest you begin reading the above links on Abwehr and German Intelligence Networks as I have provided. Especially the first link as it provides a very interesting meeting occuring in June 1999 detailing Intelligence Operations in Germany for 50 years from 1939 to 1999

Interesting stuff Emac, I agree there is no 100% security. Thanks for the links!

About Enigma I think that Donitz was very suspicious, he didn't trust it except that HQ kept assuring him it was foolproof.

Nothing is fool proof Freebird not even Engima or its British counterpart Ultra or Collausses. These machines were operated by Human Beings and as such Human Beings make mistakes and hence machines being operated by Human Beings mistakes occur. The unfortunate thing of today I find that many think the Germans always had the upper hand in everything during World War 2. This wasn't the case and never was. I admit we got of onto another area in this scenerio. But I felt compelled to prove that Abwehr wasn't perfect Freebird. As Soren was overlooking Abwehr failures and glorifying all of Abwehr's successes. A simple Google Search on Abwehr MI5 or MI6 will lead you into some very interesting sites and information that is available is some what overwhelming.

But one of the most interesting links I came across but unfortunately I didn't save it nor can I find it again was from an operation by MI6 SOE and PWE involving having Abwehr and the Gestapo believe there was a Fifth Element Group operating in side Germany itself. The Operation was based similar to the misinformation campaign conducted by the Allies with turned Abwehr Agents leading up to the D.Day. What was involved basically was this Freebrid. The British Intelligence early in World War 2 had their Operatives in Germany captured. So the British devised a plan to have Abwehr and the Gestapo believe 5th Element Groups had reformed funded by MI6 or SOE style Operatives. The opposite was true of course. No such groups exsisted in Germany. But here was the bluff part of the Operation. What the British had done was to use captured German POWs train them as like SOE Operatives but being low ranked and easily captured on return back to Germany etc. The RAF during the course of bombing raids would also drop weapon caches radio equipment and false code books etc near certain areas the Allied Intelligence Services had the Gestapo and Abwehr believing was the nuclues to 5th Element Groups. The Weapons Radios and Code Books were dropped by the RAF to simulate that 5th Element Groups were being resupplied. And this also included false and misleading documents supposively of the secret nature etc etc. It was by all means a rouse. But the basis behind it was that Abwehr and the Gestapo would waste time money and man power investigating the rouse. Abwehr did similar operations to this but it seems the British had a more natural flair for this type of operation then the Germans and was somewhat more successful then the Germans themselves. Maybe its from the very fact that at times the English can be absolutely villians at times when it suits them. But also this scenerio that the British set up fits perfectly well in some parts of the scenerio you had envisioned Freebird in this discussion.

What I find in particular with MI5 and MI6 the English have this attitude different from the Germans. That it was all serious and dangerous but it was more like wizard jape boys own stuff. When it came to spying and espionage. It was more an adventure to the English then it was to their German or Axis Counter Parts. But it was deadly dangerous all the same. If you look at the website link below the game of spying seemed to take on different paramaters for each country. And if you go through the alpabetically listed sections of the home page on this website you will find different information and links Freebird and further books dealing in the subject of espionage and how the different Spy Networks evolved and were set up

Encyclopedia of Espionage, Intelligence, and Security


When I find the link again I will post it for you to read. Though admittely not all parts of this MI6 plan were carried out and some parts were cancelled for various reasons. But in Espionage the game of bluffing and counter bluffing your opponet was part of what all Intelligence Organisations do. By the way just found the link of the M16 SOE and PWE

Black Propaganda - Operation Periwig

Been skiing in Sweden since thursday, hence my absence on forum, will address this thread as soon as possible.

PS: Sad to see my Weaponology thread closed Esp. because of all the crap written by Glen M_Kenny

Hope you enjoyed your skiing Soren. Have no idea about your other Postings or thread so will not comment.

But a note here. Over the weekend HMAS Sydney and HSK Kormoran have both been located after 65 years. Which ties up with this link in some aspects. But more the case of a Surface vessel action involving A HMAS Ship and a Kriegsmarine Ship. Of the Western Australian Coast


Ok now have read your other thread Soren. Good God it was a simple area of people disagreeing about a discussion or debate. No one at fault just an over expressing of ideas. One has to except a closure as an adult to a debate when it becomes heated or uncivil

Yes Emac that was very exciting, it is nice that finally one of the greatest navel misteries of Australia has finally been solved after almost 70 years.

Emac44,

I never claimed that all the operations of the Abwehr and Brandenburgers were successful, that's just yet another of your attempts to put words into my mouth, and let me tell you I don't like it!

What I said, and I stand by it, is that the Anwehr was never infiltrated, and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise. A number of Abwehr agents were captured, that's completely true, but far more Allied agents were caught by the Abwehr and the Gestapo.

What also needs to be noted is that the Brandenburg regiment and the Abwehr were very small organizations and didn't commit nearly as many men to covert operations as the Allies did. The Abwehr Gestapo not only had to deal with the MI5 6, but also the OSS, French underground resistance, the Red Orchestra, the partizans, etc etc... The Abwehr Gestapo had their hands full.

But Emac44, please provide the links you have on the Brandenburgers. Should be interesting since I've got most books covering them and their activities.

So like in the beginning I still see no serious threats to the operation not succeeding.

Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated.

The above are your words Soren. Along with it you also said that when Caneris was in command of Abwehr. I have provided proof that Abwehr had indeed been penetrated. Abwehr had been duped by Allied Intelligence Organisation Abwehr Code Books had been captured Abwehr Persosnal had been captured. Abwehr had its communications comprimised not just once but numerous times. And Abwehr mistakenly thought there was no such things as double agents. Agents Abwehr put faith in who were working for the Allies and had betrayed Abwehr. It doesn't get any more simplier than that Soren. And yet you still sit there Soren shaking your head and saying it never happened. Well unfortunately for you Soren IT DID HAPPEN. And all of it whilst Caneris was in command of Abwehr. And now you are making excuses saying that Abwehr was out matched because it has so many other organisations ranged against it Russian US British and French. And Soren Abwehr had been penetrated by the SS and SD. Abwehr like any Intelligence Organisations manned by human beings make and made mistakes.

Abwehr wasn't manned by Supermen nor were the Brabdenburgers you have so much faith in. I suggest Soren you find in yourself that you have misguided yourself into believing the Abwehr and the Brandenbergers didn't **** it up on more than one occassion. And you have glorified their successes and minimized their failures to a degree that you have deluded yourself. Now go ahead and continue to believe your Abwehr Based Fairy Tales. As for me the evidence I have provided for you speaks for itself. That you have denied the evidence and discounted it because it doesn't jell with your dreams of a Abwehr Brandenberger SuperWorld made up of Super Humans. And I am finished with your childishness Soren. Proof of your childishness in my mind came with your own posting on German Weaponology and You proceeded calling other Forum Users Liars because they dared to disagree with you in another thread. I deal with adults Soren not denial based Children.

And you know what Soren I don't give a FLYING TOSS IF YOU FEEL I HAVE PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH. Quiet frankly Soren. I read your statements and now you have made excuses for Abwehr because the evidence I provided made Abwehr look human and it is that you have problems adjusting to. And you go right ahead believing your scenerio would work in your own denials of Abwehr and the Brandenburgers. Believe what you want as in my opinion you are standing in a pile of **** and you think its roses growing. Aussie was correct you are talking POO. And I am finished discussing anything with you Soren. And if you feel insulted by all this then good Soren because I am tired in dealing with a spoilt child who can't see the error of his own ways and believes no one else has a clue about World War 2.

Freebird I will not be taking any more part in this scenerio.

"Aussie was correct you are talking POO"
I enjoy it when my opinions are verified.
as for me all i can say is exactly what Emac 44 has said.
Seriously Soren, supermen are in a comic books not in the german army.

Emac, you're the one being childish not me, and you've provided no proof other than websites stating the capture of German agents. That Abwehr code books were retrieved meant nothing, esp. seeing that the Abwehr knew about it, hence their ability to continue carrying out successful covert operations till the end of the war. If the Allies knew everything they were doing that wouldn't have been possible at all! Is that so hard to understand ??? Now if you want to deny this then fine by me, but you'd just be making stuff up from then on.

Finally I don't believe the Abwehr or Brandenburgers to be supermen and have never claimed them to be either, and I neither claimed they never made any mistakes, you Emac however have tried to make it sound like that. You have also made it sound like the Austrailians were somehow better soldiers than everyone else, hence you're the one deluding yourself here.

And as for the Weaponology thread, well do you feel providing facts is childish?

Fact is that Germany was the clear leader in most fields of techonology, esp. Aerodynamics in which it was far ahead from 1904 and till the end of WW2. That's what M_kenny esp. Glen tried to dispute. And as for me calling them liars, well fact is Glen is a known liar, just check out the previous threads he has attended, he makes stuff up, it's that simple.

Anyway this is just fact, and if that upsets you then that's your problem and I can't help you with that.

Now as for the many links you claimed to have on the Brandenburgers, well no surprise you haven't presented these yet..

I never thought when I joined this website I would find some one that irritating and frustratingly narrow minded. And to keep the peace on the website I have placed this person on ignore. In my opinion it has gone from a scenerio to one of obsession bordering on fantasy. And then proceeded to insult my country in a round about fashion. Which I will not tolerate

Hmm.. still no links.. oh well, no surprise..

Soren said:

And as for the Weaponology thread, well do you feel providing facts is childish?

Fact is that Germany was the clear leader in most fields of techonology, That's what M_kenny esp. Glen tried to dispute. And as for me calling them liars, well fact is Glen is a known liar, just check out the previous threads he has attended, he makes stuff up, it's that simple.

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Oh please lets not import any more disagreements here!

Emac44 said:

I never thought when I joined this website I would find some one that irritating and frustratingly narrow minded. And to keep the peace on the website I have placed this person on ignore. In my opinion it has gone from a scenerio to one of obsession bordering on fantasy. And then proceeded to insult my country in a round about fashion. Which I will not tolerate

Click to expand...

Sorry that the thread seems to have got a bit disagreeable.

Thanks for your good info Emac, that was the original point of the thread, to explore the possibilities of "special ops". It's interesting that the Axis did not try to do as much as the Allies, {especially the British Empire} I wonder if that was arrogance on their part, or if the British just made more use of it because they were so short on troops such.

Although I must say that it seems like Germany made more use of special ops in the early years when they were not as powerful as well. I am thinking of the Norway operation, their troops were minimal but they were very effective

No need for you to apologise Freebird. I regret the discussion has boiled down to this. But as I said to keep the peace I will discontinue the discussion

freebird said:

Oh please lets not import any more disagreements here!

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Hey don't blame me Freebird, it wasn't me who brought up the weaponology thread, and I didn't start throwing the mud either.

Emac's links only mention the capture of German agents, nothing about any infiltrations of the Abwehr.

PS: Sad to see my Weaponology thread closed Esp. because of all the crap written by Glen M_Kenny [/QUOTE]


Hmmmmm interesting

Soren said:

Been skiing in Sweden since thursday, hence my absence on forum, will address this thread as soon as possible.

PS: Sad to see my Weaponology thread closed Esp. because of all the crap written by Glen M_Kenny

Click to expand...

Hmmmm very interesting indeed

So is that your late excuse for starting throwing insults in this thread ?

And you ignoring every website I place on this thread dealing with the infiltration of Abwehr by the Allies including Operation Gabo during WW2. And then proceeded to call me a LIAR. But then again Soren you are very good at calling people LIARS. Pity you can't distinguished what a LIAR really is. Then had the cheek to say to Freebird it was me who had mudslung. Well Soren you wanted attention to your thread being closed on German Weaponology because 2 other users decided to get stuck into you and you didn't like it and you decided to bring it to this thread. And all that was was Soren and his pity party seeking,

And every single Abwehr agent caught and captured except 1 who commited suicide turned against Abwehr in Britian and there was well over 100 agents of Abwehr operating in Britian from 1938 to 1941. Abwehr Head Quatars in Paris was Penetrated by the French Resistence. Abwehr Code Books were stolen by the British Abwehr communications were comprimised. And still after all those website I put on the thread including from MI5 and BBC you chose to ignore. Making out that justifies you calling me a LIAR. Capturing of those Abwehr Agents and the information the British gained from those agents and turning those agents means Abwehr was certainly penetrated and Infiltrated by the Allies in World War 2. You Soren just choose to ignore all that because it still doesn't fit in with your Germanic Abwehr Fantasies of Supermen.

And it is my self who chooses to respond to a thread or not. As much as I said to Freebird I would not respond on this thread I decided otherwise after reading your juvenile remarks to Freebird about myself.

In future Soren if I was you I would stop referring to people on this website as LIARS or making comments as to you hinting to them as being LIARS because they dare to disagree with your fanatic ideas about Abwehr Brandenberg or German Weaponology. If any one slung mud it was yourself Soren. As Glen M_ Kenny remarks were justified. German Weaponology was good but failed miserabley many times due to a variety of reasons barely touched on by those 2 other users. Yes I did read their remarks and your replies on that thread. You apparently Soren have a problem that has been noted by others on this forum of being one eyed and biased towards German Technology and Military achievements and disregard Allied Nations as being inferior to that of the Germans.

And Freebird once again I apologise for bringing this Thread to disagreement again. I suggest you have one of the Moderators close this thread.