Best tank killer aircraft of WW2 Part I

[Dan]

i heard that the Hurricanes that were used in north africa were equipped with armor percing rounds that were mainly "tank killers" but the pilots had to be careful because the guns were extremely heavy and the planes would usually end up nose first into the sand

 

[plan_D]

Those are the Hurricanes we are talking about, Dan. The IIC, IID and IV were equipped as such with two 40mm Vickers cannons under the wings.

The above being a Hurricane Mk. IV.

 

[lesofprimus]

Lightning guy... We are not talking aircombat here... We are talking about ground attack... Flying between trees and buildings and under powerlines... Being faster does not necessarily mean a higher survivability on the battlefield... Many, many, MANY ground attack aircraft were lost to operational reasons... Slower means better maneouverabilty, tighter turns, and better jinking... And besides, last time I checked, ground attack aircraft did not attack tank concentrations at their maximum speed...

And BTW, if u think that 40mph makes a difference when sighting in a 37mm flak gun on an attacking aircraft on a cannon run, u need to share what u be smokin man, cause that weed from Amsterdam is real hard to come by...

No one seemed to notice my comment from my last post concerning the theoretical scenario...

Would the war on Russian soil have turned out differently if the Germans had the Sturmovik, and the Russians had the Stuka???

Or for that matter, if the Germans had a specifically designed, from concept to production, ground attack fighter similar to the Il-2 and Stuka, and produced in mass quantities, unlike the Stuka, but with that special German engineering that we all love so much...

Would it have changed the war for Germany??? Tough question, and theortical I know... But what if???

I will agree with this much... The Il-2 was faster, better armoured, more manouverable, more armament onboard, and pretty much a better plane in general...

But does this make it a better tank buster??? I think we have to take into consideration the quality of the armaments...
Whose 37mm cannon was better??? Which one jammed less??? Which was more accurate??? Which one has a higher velocity??? Did the Russians use a cannon shell that had a Tungsten-carbide core??? Which 37mm had a higher rate of fire??? Was the Stuka a more stable platform at approach attack speed??? Which was easier to aim???

Many many questions... We can all guess, but in the end, if u didnt fly one or both during WW2, then it all comes down to which one u favor...

And which one destroyed more enemy tanks... Yadda yadda yadda, the Russians had more tanks to destroy... Yea... And the Germans had less Stukas... Does this mean that the Sturmoviks were flyin around lookin for tanks, couldnt find any, and flew back home to base with weapons still on racks???

Nope... There were enough German tanks in that theatre to go around and then some...

Was it that the Russian pilots sucked, compared to the Stuka pilots???

Nope... Rudel washed outta Stuka flight training, not once, but twice... He was shot down 30 times by AA... (probaly that high because of his 2000+ sorties)

Because his plane was 40mph slower than the Il-2???

Nope...

Very good Russian Anti-Aircraft gunners???

Maybe...

Dont forget to reply on the theoretical issue i mentioned.. Im interested in ur opinions guys... U all seem real attuned to this sorta stuff, as I am...

 

[plan_D]

I think LG posted that theoretical thing first.
Amsterdam weed is very easy to come by, actually. How much do you want?

You cannot answer the Germany having Il-2 question. The reasons Germany lost the Russia war was not due to air power but for many, many other reasons. And if you wish I could list them, to the best of my ability.

 

[lesofprimus]

Livin in the USA, Amsterdam weed is just a glimmer in ones eye... Too risky gettin it shipped here... Policeman delivers ur package... Not good.. Dont feel like learnin to toss someones salad...

And yea, I understand why Germany lost the war, but would it have made a difference if the Germans had 10,000 Il-2's flying across the Soviets steepes???

Instead of a couple hundred, old, outdated Stukas...

And I was unaware LG posed this question before...

 

[plan_D]

I honestly think it would have made a difference in losses by air. You have to remember though the Stukas over Russia were for close air-support in the bombing role mostly.
Guderian (Col. Gen of 2nd Panzer Army) was very thankful of the air-support he had at the begining of the campaign into Russia. But even as early as November 1941, he noticed that the OKW had started to become drunk on success and was moving the air support all over the place, allowing the VVS some local superiority if only for a few short hours.

 

[lesofprimus]

Interesting little bit o info there... Maybe i shoulda been more specific... I was not talking about Stukas in general, but Ju-87G tank destroyers...

Do u think the extra losses by this theoretical airpower could have stemmed the Russian Red Tide??? Or was the winter simply just too much period???

 

[plan_D]

The Wehrmacht was stopped not only by the incoming winter but by the condition of the roads. They were not roads, but mud baths. The OKW and OKH were so drunk on success they did not stop to think for a second, sending the forces deeper and deeper into Russian terrority. Giving out unrealistic objectives for the Panzer Armies, such as that of Panzer Army 2. Which fought from June to November 1941, non-stop. Pushing all the way to Tula, and the gates of Moscow through weaving actions while encircling many Russian units.

While tanks and trucks were becoming stuck into the roads, and when the first snows fell the German units felt the bite of winter. Winter clothing had been requested since the start of Operation Barbarossa but the OKW were not willing to hand it out.
The men of the Wehrmacht were worn out, by the end of 1941. They had no rest, no proper equipment and even at the start they were using poor French vehicles captured in May 1940. The German High Command were not listening to their frontline commanders such as Manstein and Guderian, so they lost touch, and some didn't even believe the roads were as bad as stated.

There were too many reasons as to why the Soviet Union prevailed over Germany.

No plane could have stopped it.

 

[lesofprimus]

Nice info... I knew that the army really overextended itself... Its an amazing example of how NOT to invade another country...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

especailly russia...........................

 

[plan_D]

It went very well at the start, as we all know. If the OKW had issued winter clothing and more metal road to put over what the Russians liked to call roads.
Also let the troops have a little rest. Not only were the troops physically exhausted but mentally exhausted as well. It doesn't help the command skills of the Generals if they are mentally exhausted.

Some of the tactics on the front were genius, and many Russian troops were encircled and captured. Hundreds of thousands at a time. One other thing the Germans didn't realise, was how effective the T-34 was. It was far superior to the Pz. IV. Luckily though the Russian generals were unwilling to use them effectively.

Although even during 1941, Guderian found that the Russians were learning. He described how they would force masses of infantry at a head on assault, then a mass tank army would come at the flank. This being on the operational basis, as this was Guderians area. He wasn't a battle commander, but he would have been able to do it. He brought together Blitzkrieg after all.

On top of all that, the attack in June was something fatal. As it was supposed to happen in May. However a British attack in the Balkans made them delay the assault while they dealt with the British.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

typical brits, always ruining things..............

 

[lesofprimus]

The do make great boots tho...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

that was random....................

 

[plan_D]

We did/do more than just good boots. It was very random though.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

We did/do more than just good boots

you know i think that's what they'd say if they did an advert for great britain..................

 

[plan_D]

How do you know I'm not the advertiser for Great Britain?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

you're doing a great job..................

 

[lesofprimus]

Random is ok... Just bein silly i suppose...

I have been to London, Portsmouth, Southampton, and Brighton in my time with Seal Team-2...

Got severely drunk with a barroom full of British sailors in Zebrugge, Belgium back in 1994... The beer was unreal... They were mixing 4 different beers from taps and it looked purple... One glass supposedly equaled 4 budwiesers...

All i know is that i was frucked up on 2 of em, which i drank rather quickly... Was not prepared for the alcohol %...

 

[plan_D]

Yes, American beer is very weak. Being in Belgium I hope you had some Stella Artois aka. Angry;Wife Beater;Rocket Fuel. It's weak if it's lower than 5% in my opinion.

So you've been to the fake Britain then. You should at some point go up north in Britain, to Yorkshire.