Erich
the old Sage
sorry freind as the Soviets were pretty crappy shots in Ost Preussia I guess. The Stug 3's were covered in concrete and no silly .50's were going to go through that. The 20mms bounced off but I can only imagine what the 37mm's did
Best tank killer aircraft of WW2 Part I
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I wouldn't consider 11mm of top armour concrete, would you?
Erich
the old Sage
sorry bud that is what they used over the top as well as sandbags, wood, anything possible to deflect any type of rounds. from the top and front/back and even sides as the Schurtzen was more of a joke during late war and was a simple tie down for camo since Stug Abt 1 was used in the defensive role in 1945, the unit waited till the last moment to fire their 7.5cm's at the JS II's and T-34's.
Hello Care Bears:
This brings into my mind, on and on, the tale on how absolutely "perfect" the allies tell their weapons were.
The guys of the USA tell the world the P-51 arrived in Europe to make a real "laid-back" work "erasing" the Luftwaffe from European skies with ease. Bulls**t. I know veterans and stories are somewhat different.
The guys of the former USSR tell the IL-2M was one of their several "wonder" weapons. Bulls**t again.
Yes cutties, the allies won. Their victory was absolute and undisputed, who has any reasonable doubts at all on that?
The thing would be, how or in which manner was their victory achieved?
It is right there where the going gets rough for the allied creatures. Their victory was not easy at all; their plans hardly went ahead with the mathemathical perfection they frequently claim and likewise, German plans were not always "ill-fated" during the last stages of the conflict.
I have soviet propaganda footage showing the IL-2M´s making a dive attack (the angle could hardly surpass 45 degrees) with all wing cannons blazing (37 mm) and the view is very cool; a very very powerful punch.
However, I did learn such footage had been made in late 1945, in combat traning flight. The war was already over.
The Il-2M made its contribution for victory. Again, any reasonable doubts on that?
1944 saw a dramatic reduction of German fighter strenght in the east, since many units were sent west for the Defense of the Reich against the heavy bombers. Even under such circumstances the IL-2s had frightful loss rates. Yes, there were not too many German fighters to intercept them and the Shturmoviks got produced in massive numbers: a very valid thing to do. In war everything is valid.
Still, resorting to affirm it destroyed "thousands" of German tanks is another one of the wild overdoses of the drug of victory the allies tend to suffer.
It is frequently depicted: the rear gunner (12.7 mm) as a new feature on the IL-2M made the soviet plane a nearly "superb" machine. Bulls**t.
Yes, if you have a rear gunner looking out for enemy interceptors, your chances of survival certainly increase. However, and as I said on the "Bombers defensive armament" thread, if you are clumsy and slow, no matter how heavily armored and packed with defensive guns your aircraft is.
Your much much faster and manouverable enemy will certainly bring you down in far bigger numbers!
If the heavies of the 8th and 15th Air Forces packed with up to twelve (12!) .50 cal defensive machine guns got obliterated by the German fighters, try to think of the fate of perhaps a large formation of single engined planes fitted with one defensive rear gun only!
It was in some other WWII forum where one member posted a story of the Il-2´s. When Germany finally surrendered the soviets seized some Kriegsmarine vessels as war prizes.
It appears like one day, they VVS conducted some combat training flights in the Blatic Sea and one (or several) of such war prizes, were used as targets for the bombs of the Shturmoviks.
Perfect weather, target speed: zero, no AA fire, no enemy planes. The IL-2 pilots could hardly score hits on the crippled target.
I do not recall where, and can not tell if there is any confirmation of such event happening though.
This brings into my mind, on and on, the tale on how absolutely "perfect" the allies tell their weapons were.
The guys of the USA tell the world the P-51 arrived in Europe to make a real "laid-back" work "erasing" the Luftwaffe from European skies with ease. Bulls**t. I know veterans and stories are somewhat different.
The guys of the former USSR tell the IL-2M was one of their several "wonder" weapons. Bulls**t again.
Yes cutties, the allies won. Their victory was absolute and undisputed, who has any reasonable doubts at all on that?
The thing would be, how or in which manner was their victory achieved?
It is right there where the going gets rough for the allied creatures. Their victory was not easy at all; their plans hardly went ahead with the mathemathical perfection they frequently claim and likewise, German plans were not always "ill-fated" during the last stages of the conflict.
I have soviet propaganda footage showing the IL-2M´s making a dive attack (the angle could hardly surpass 45 degrees) with all wing cannons blazing (37 mm) and the view is very cool; a very very powerful punch.
However, I did learn such footage had been made in late 1945, in combat traning flight. The war was already over.
The Il-2M made its contribution for victory. Again, any reasonable doubts on that?
1944 saw a dramatic reduction of German fighter strenght in the east, since many units were sent west for the Defense of the Reich against the heavy bombers. Even under such circumstances the IL-2s had frightful loss rates. Yes, there were not too many German fighters to intercept them and the Shturmoviks got produced in massive numbers: a very valid thing to do. In war everything is valid.
Still, resorting to affirm it destroyed "thousands" of German tanks is another one of the wild overdoses of the drug of victory the allies tend to suffer.
It is frequently depicted: the rear gunner (12.7 mm) as a new feature on the IL-2M made the soviet plane a nearly "superb" machine. Bulls**t.
Yes, if you have a rear gunner looking out for enemy interceptors, your chances of survival certainly increase. However, and as I said on the "Bombers defensive armament" thread, if you are clumsy and slow, no matter how heavily armored and packed with defensive guns your aircraft is.
Your much much faster and manouverable enemy will certainly bring you down in far bigger numbers!
If the heavies of the 8th and 15th Air Forces packed with up to twelve (12!) .50 cal defensive machine guns got obliterated by the German fighters, try to think of the fate of perhaps a large formation of single engined planes fitted with one defensive rear gun only!
It was in some other WWII forum where one member posted a story of the Il-2´s. When Germany finally surrendered the soviets seized some Kriegsmarine vessels as war prizes.
It appears like one day, they VVS conducted some combat training flights in the Blatic Sea and one (or several) of such war prizes, were used as targets for the bombs of the Shturmoviks.
Perfect weather, target speed: zero, no AA fire, no enemy planes. The IL-2 pilots could hardly score hits on the crippled target.
I do not recall where, and can not tell if there is any confirmation of such event happening though.
Erich
the old Sage
Erich
the old Sage
here's a big boy
Erich
the old Sage
Erich
the old Sage
evangilder
"Shooter"
Nice shots!
Erich
the old Sage
do you know the Gescwhader and the staffel emblem of the owl ? 
the Geschwader operated a tank killing 10th panzerstaffel with the Ju 87G-1and 2's
the Geschwader operated a tank killing 10th panzerstaffel with the Ju 87G-1and 2's
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Erich, the second shot (Wolf) is of Stab 1/ STG 77......
Not sure about the owl........ Is it 3/STG 77??????
Not sure about the owl........ Is it 3/STG 77??????
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
And BTW Erich, Great pics man..... Everyone here greatly appreciates the time and pictures u have posted here.... Thx, Dan
Nonskimmer
Captain
lesofprimus said:
Indeed we do!
Erich
the old Sage
good job Dan and thanks for the compliments.
yes Gruppenstab I./SG 77 and the owl was 3rd staffel. The sky in the Ist gruppes emblems was white
E ~
yes Gruppenstab I./SG 77 and the owl was 3rd staffel. The sky in the Ist gruppes emblems was white
E ~
Erich
the old Sage
The StuGIII, as the SPG on its own, could actually be ripped open by .50 cals - like a cheap tin can, I may add. They did stick trees, sandbags - ANYTHING on but I'm refering to the mere 11mm of armour they were built with.
The Finnish were the best at camoflauging and uparmouring their tanks with natural resources in the field. Sometimes you can't even tell what it is because of all the trees attached to it.
The Finnish were the best at camoflauging and uparmouring their tanks with natural resources in the field. Sometimes you can't even tell what it is because of all the trees attached to it.
Erich
the old Sage
no I do not unfortunately ............ wish I did. the cahp up by the Ju was radio operator of that particular a/c and crewed with a Staffel Kommanduer in 3rd staffel. I have another pic somewhere showing the armor details of the D variant of the cockpit..........very nice
E `
E `
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
that's a great shot of the stuka..................
Erich
the old Sage
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