British Debts

Graeme · Oct 29, 2007

Instal said:
Here's a hypothetical for you. You and your best friend are sitting in your living room and in comes a criminal to harm you and your family. You do not have a gun but your best friend does and he turns to you and say's I'll help you get rid of this guy but you owe me for the rest of your life. Is this right?

Hi Graham,
The analogy that was actually bandied around at the time was the 'fire extinguisher' one, coined by one of Roosevelt's advisers;

"It seems to me that we Americans are like the householder who refuses to lend or sell his fire extinguisher to help put out the fire in the house that is right next door."

However, Anti-interventionist Senator Burton Wheeler countered this logic with;

.."you can't put your shirt-tail into a clothes wringer and pull it out suddenly while the wringer keeps turning."

Roosevelt sought a solution (Lend Lease), and refashioned the above analogy thus;

His new idea would get…"rid of the silly, foolish old dollar sign" proposing that the USA should lend its garden hose to help his neighbour put out his fire-and if the hose were damaged there would be "a gentleman's obligation to repay in kind."

(From 'The Most Unsordid Act': Lend-Lease, 1939-1941 by W.F. Kimball 1969.)

Have you read much on the Canadian Mutual Aid?

plan_D · Oct 29, 2007

I do agree with Instal on one thing; that it wasn't the worse sin of the war for Britain not to invade Germany in 1939 - as Britain did not have the means.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2007

Instal said:
Why is it a sin that the UK did nothing when the Nazi's rolled through Poland yet it's OK that the U.S. did nothing either. G.B. and France did nothing not because they wouldn't it was because they couldn't. They were simply not prepared. They immediately declared war and set about preparing for that war while the U.S. neither declared or prepared.

1. Because it was in their own back yard

2. The UK and France DECLARED WAR ON GERMANY!

Not prepared?!?!? Bullsh!t - had The UK and France pulled their head out of their asses they could of at least tried to roll partially into Germany - they had the assets maybe not to invade the country as a whole but they could of done something to show Hitler that they were not going to allow him to go any further by pretending to open another front, and i blame the leadership of both countries for that blunder. Instead they both sat there and France was eventually swallowed....

here, real simple....

Phoney War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2007

plan_D said:
I do agree with Instal on one thing; that it wasn't the worse sin of the war for Britain not to invade Germany in 1939 - as Britain did not have the means.

The UK alone - YES. Combined with France they had enough strength to do something. The Minute Germany rolled into Poland they (France and Britain) should of incurred on the German border. It would of thrown Hitler off balance as he now had 2 fronts and might of bough Poland more time. Mind you, all this IMO....

The Basket · Oct 29, 2007

Britain and France declared war at the absolute worst moment. If we declared war at the Munich conference then Germany would have been defeated quickly.

Jodl or Keitel said that there was only a military screen in the west as most forces were invading Poland. French army could have done a lot of damage if they invaded.

I am no yank basher. US support either military or supplies kept us going and we would have lasted 5 minutes without it.

plan_D · Oct 29, 2007

I've read about the phoney war over and over again, Joe, and I recognise the potential that Great Britain and France had for an invasion of Germany in 1939.
The best attack on British and French policy can be found in Panzer Battles by Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin. Without trying to attack the actions of France (most importantly), von Mellenthin makes it obvious to the reader that France had every oppurtunity to overrun the 'West Wall' - which was poorly built and garrisoned. However, he does make the point that German propaganda was good enough to make the 'West Wall' seem formidable.

The British means of attacking Germany can only be found in the air and sea. Without the French, Britain had not a single chance of inflicting damage to Germany - the B.E.F was not an offensive force, it had no potential as such.

The fault of the phoney war can only be found with France - it seems an obvious bias against France but with all the history at hand, it's obvious that only France had the power to say yes or no to an invasion of Germany. Britain attacked Germany, albeit lightly, during the months between September 1939 and June 1940.

France had the largest army in Western Europe - it was up to them and no one else.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2007

plan_D said:
I've read about the phoney war over and over again, Joe, and I recognise the potential that Great Britain and France had for an invasion of Germany in 1939.
The best attack on British and French policy can be found in Panzer Battles by Maj. Gen. von Mellenthin. Without trying to attack the actions of France (most importantly), von Mellenthin makes it obvious to the reader that France had every oppurtunity to overrun the 'West Wall' - which was poorly built and garrisoned. However, he does make the point that German propaganda was good enough to make the 'West Wall' seem formidable.

The British means of attacking Germany can only be found in the air and sea. Without the French, Britain had not a single chance of inflicting damage to Germany - the B.E.F was not an offensive force, it had no potential as such.

The fault of the phoney war can only be found with France - it seems an obvious bias against France but with all the history at hand, it's obvious that only France had the power to say yes or no to an invasion of Germany. Britain attacked Germany, albeit lightly, during the months between September 1939 and June 1940.

France had the largest army in Western Europe - it was up to them and no one else.

Agree 100% - it's unfortunate what happened but then again we're talking about the French!

Haztoys · Oct 29, 2007

Instal said:
Am I way off the mark? Wasn't the U.S. in the best financial condition in it's history after WW2? I think it was. AND I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS A BAD THING. What I am saying is that after the war G.B. was in the wost financial condition it had ever been. If this state of affairs was not caused by the reasons I mentioned please tell me what did cause this amazing transformation of these two countries fortunes in such a short time.

Yes the US financial condition was better . The US did not get the **** bombed out of it.. You act like G.B. payed for EVERY bomb and plane..?

WE did not charge G.B. all of the bill..Lendlease was a small % of the over all bill of what it cost the US to fight the war..

"Amazing Transformation" ...US did not get bombed to the stone age..And GB did ..Europe and Japan could not export jack for some time after the war ..Do to having been bombed to the stone age..And the US could .. Maybe thats way..Not that the war did not get the ball rolling..GB losted control of some the country they got there money from..The US has alot of steel lumber and oil (at that time ) in the US ...And GB and Europe and Japan got theres from countrys they controled ...And after the war they did not control the same countrys they had..

How could a 4+Billion dollars of the LL money could of helped the "Amazing Transformation" in 1946 or 49 or 51..How.??.....It was not payed back at that time ...How .. The money was not in the US's pocket to use.. It was still in GB's pocket..??..

And after WW2 was the start of the US's fake numbers to run this country..Spend what you do not have and rack up dept..

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2007

Instal said:
How is this a dumb statement? The isolationist movement in the U.S. was very strong right up to Pearl so yes the U.S. had it's head in the sand. The general population wanted nothing to do with the war. The only one trying to do something was F.D.R. and yes he did this at great political risk because THE REST OF THE COUNTRY HAD THIER HEADS IN THE SAND. So, F.D.R. knows he must do something and the only thing he can do is get the Brits as much raw material as he can. At a price. It is that price which is now debt that is the topic of this thread. Here's a hypothetical for you. You and your best friend are sitting in your living room and in comes a criminal to harm you and your family. You do not have a gun but your best friend does and he turns to you and say's I'll help you get rid of this guy but you owe me for the rest of your life. Is this right?

Until Pearl Harbor it was not America's war. Did Britian run over and help us out in Vietnam? No because it was not there war...

That is why it was a pretty dumb statement.

Instal said:
I am looking at this from a big picture point of view.

Ofcourse you can do that now.

Hind sight is allways 20/20.

Instal said:
World War two wasn't a European war it was a war for the preservation of freedom and democracy in the world.

It became one but before then it was Europes problem. It was Europes job first to clean up there own continent.

Instal said:
Everyone who benefited by it's victory. So is it fair that the U.K. tax payers pick up the tab when the U.S. benefited as much as anyone.

That is a very dumb way to look at it. Why the hell should the UK not pay for the products that were made by US citizens. The UK would have made the US pay for them as well. Its called a debt. The money to make those things had to come from somewhere.

Instal said:
And please don't read anything more in to this than a discussion. I am not making an attack I am stating the case as I understand it and I welcome any information that will change my view.

No worries. Discussions can get heated sometimes but dont lose any sleep over it.

Instal said:
Big picture here folks. The benefit is being able to live in a world free of Nazi tyranny.

No you are not seeing the Big Picture here.

As Joe has stated. The US Government paid to have those planes and tanks and guns and equipment built and sent to England, Russia, and slews of other countries. Therefore when the US Government paid for these things it raises a debt because the money could just not come from nowhere. (Money does not grow on trees). Therefore if our allies were not paying the money back it would the be the US Tax Payers (citizens like Me, Joe, Dan, Erich, Eric, Matt, etc...) that would be paying for that out of our pockets even today.

Is the US Tax Payers having to pay for it really that fair when the equipment was not for our fighting soldiers?

Instal said:
Why is it a sin that the UK did nothing when the Nazi's rolled through Poland yet it's OK that the U.S. did nothing either.

Because it was not our war. It was Europes war at the time.

Instal said:
G.B. and France did nothing not because they wouldn't it was because they couldn't. They were simply not prepared. They immediately declared war and set about preparing for that war while the U.S. neither declared or prepared.

I think you need to learn your history a bit more. The Germans were weaker than France and England at the start of the war. Even German Generals warned Hitler that if the English and French attack from the west they could defeat Germany.

Also to say they were not prepared is pretty foolish as well. Germany had started to remilitarize years before WW2. As early as 1933 Germany started showing signs of aggression. Who was appeasing the Germans? Was it the US? No it was England and France. Germany was building up for war right in front of there eyes and they new it.

The US was in no position to go to war in 1939. We had a very small military at that point that was very outdated. It takes time to build and Army, modernize it and get over the damn ocean....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2007

plan_D said:
I do agree with Instal on one thing; that it wasn't the worse sin of the war for Britain not to invade Germany in 1939 - as Britain did not have the means.

I agree with you that Britian alone did not have the ability but combined with France they could have done something.

Instal · Oct 29, 2007

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Until Pearl Harbor it was not America's war. Did Britian run over and help us out in Vietnam? No because it was not there war...

That is why it was a pretty dumb statement.

Ofcourse you can do that now.

Hind sight is allways 20/20.

It became one but before then it was Europes problem. It was Europes job first to clean up there own continent.

That is a very dumb way to look at it. Why the hell should the UK not pay for the products that were made by US citizens. The UK would have made the US pay for them as well. Its called a debt. The money to make those things had to come from somewhere.

No worries. Discussions can get heated sometimes but dont lose any sleep over it.

No you are not seeing the Big Picture here.

As Joe has stated. The US Government paid to have those planes and tanks and guns and equipment built and sent to England, Russia, and slews of other countries. Therefore when the US Government paid for these things it raises a debt because the money could just not come from nowhere. (Money does not grow on trees). Therefore if our allies were not paying the money back it would the be the US Tax Payers (citizens like Me, Joe, Dan, Erich, Eric, Matt, etc...) that would be paying for that out of our pockets even today.

Is the US Tax Payers having to pay for it really that fair when the equipment was not for our fighting soldiers?

Because it was not our war. It was Europes war at the time.

I think you need to learn your history a bit more. The Germans were weaker than France and England at the start of the war. Even German Generals warned Hitler that if the English and French attack from the west they could defeat Germany.

Also to say they were not prepared is pretty foolish as well. Germany had started to remilitarize years before WW2. As early as 1933 Germany started showing signs of aggression. Who was appeasing the Germans? Was it the US? No it was England and France. Germany was building up for war right in front of there eyes and they new it.

The US was in no position to go to war in 1939. We had a very small military at that point that was very outdated. It takes time to build and Army, modernize it and get over the damn ocean....

Would you quit calling me dumb and I didn't say Germany was unprepared I said Britain and France were.

Aussie1001 · Oct 29, 2007

oh boy......

Instal · Oct 29, 2007

Aussie1001 said:
oh boy......

You're kidding right 'cause I was.

Haztoys · Oct 30, 2007

Instal said:
Would you quit calling me dumb and I didn't say Germany was unprepared I said Britain and France were.

Mr Instal..You have not been around here to long..Theres some old boys who REALY know there history ..And DerAdler is one of them.. FlyBoyJ and PlanD also..And if you come across "strong willed" ..As you "did"..You best know your facts and history..Because they will carpet bomb you..They realy pride them selves on the facts..And you even got me into it..And I do not do that ..I use to "think" that I knew about war history and all...Until I came here..And if you read my posts ...I will ask why on stuff and bring a small peace of info to a post..But sit back and learn around hear most days..So if your sure on your facts and want to charge the gunners nest ..Do so ..But you may get cut to peaces..

And being called dumb ..Thats nothing ..One of my first few post PlanD called me F#$%khead or F@#$kstane ..LOL...So dumb was light..

And you didn't even try to torpedo my last post..???..And I'm ez to sink..A few of these guys realy know there stuff ...Your going to need a little more armor if your going to play these are the "facts"...

mkloby · Oct 30, 2007

Haztoys said:
And being called dumb ..Thats nothing ..One of my first few post PlanD called me F#$%khead or F@#$kstane ..LOL...

You just have to love pd - he's such a jawdropping a**hole!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 30, 2007

Instal said:
Would you quit calling me dumb .

I was not calling you dumb. I was calling the post or the way of looking at it dumb. I am sorry if you took it the wrong way.

Either way to survive in these parts of the woods you have to be thick skinned.

Instal said:
and I didn't say Germany was unprepared I said Britain and France were

Go back and read my post. I said that France and Britian together were prepared to do something about Germany. England itself was not prepared to fight Germany on her own but combined with France they could have. Germany was not ready in 1939 to fight both France and England. If France and England had acted in 1939 and invaded from the West Germany would not have been able to continue there conquest of Poland and possibly would have folded.

plan_D · Oct 30, 2007

"And being called dumb ..Thats nothing ..One of my first few post PlanD called me F#$%khead or F@#$kstane ..LOL...So dumb was light.."

Did I ? At least you didn't get put off the site.

"You just have to love pd - he's such a jawdropping a**hole!"

I am an as*hole.

"I said that France and Britian together were prepared to do something about Germany. England itself was not prepared to fight Germany on her own but combined with France they could have. Germany was not ready in 1939 to fight both France and England. If France and England had acted in 1939 and invaded from the West Germany would not have been able to continue there conquest of Poland and possibly would have folded."

I do not disagree with this statement but it should be realised that it was not up to Britain to make the decision. If France had gone into Germany in 1939, Britain would only have been able to support it in air and sea.
The British Army would have been a good supporting unit but the French Army would always been the main driving force so it would have been up to them if the invasion of Germany would have happened or not.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 30, 2007

plan_D said:
I do not disagree with this statement but it should be realised that it was not up to Britain to make the decision. If France had gone into Germany in 1939, Britain would only have been able to support it in air and sea.
The British Army would have been a good supporting unit but the French Army would always been the main driving force so it would have been up to them if the invasion of Germany would have happened or not.

Agreed

Haztoys · Oct 30, 2007

plan_D said:
"And being called dumb ..Thats nothing ..One of my first few post PlanD called me F#$%khead or F@#$kstane ..LOL...So dumb was light.."

Did I ? At least you didn't get put off the site.

I did stop me coming to the site .. ..Over that and a a$$ kicking about some info I had read about the agreement the Israeli agreed at the start of them becoming a country..That a$$ handing was by Erich..But I could not find the info again..But last month I did find the info on what I was trying to say..Once I get my copyer fixed ..I'm going to mail a copy to Erich and see what he thinks about it..And I'm a bad speller and that realy does not go over well here..

Its all good ..Not complaning about it..Not at all..I realy injoy the differant point of view from around the world..And its scary what were not told and the twisted up info we are..And my best freind is for Britain..He's from Leeds..And F#%$K is a verb in England..I've come to see..LOL..PlanD I'm realy impressed with your armor ,tank and ground war info..

Its nice to just be a student in a forum some times.. I play in some car and bike forums and I have all the info ..So its nice to just learn some time ..Sorry if I have gone off topic..

plan_D · Oct 30, 2007

God, they all talk through their noses in Leeds ! It's not far from me, about a hours drive.

I apologise if I may have driven you from the site in anyway...I don't remember calling you anything ..oh well, I forget things in a pico-second normally.

And thanks, I'm always aiming to learn more...I have a serious problem with wanting to know about warfare from all eras - and studying aerospace engineering at the same time.

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