Did the US save Europe in WW2?

[bomber]

The point is they never LOST their nationality, that was idle threat that was quickly swept under the rug....

And no one ever said the Eagle Squadron fought in the B of B.

"As I walked across the bridge that morning I stopped and looked down at the swirling waters, wondering where they might carry me. I was leaving a country at peace, still becalmed in the depression, and going to one at war, fighting for it survival. I was more excited than frightened. Most of my family and friends were baffled. My own government was still in the sway of those who wanted to turn a blind eye to Hilter. It was not our war. It was not my fight. I had heard it all, but I kept on walking.
For a moment when I re-entered the RCAF recruiting station, my thoughts became mundane. Would they throw me out again, for being too thin, or too fat, as if I was in some mad version of Goldilocks and the three bears ? This time however, when I stepped onto the airforce weighing scales like a prize-fighter, the entire office cheered, I was in.
But there was price to pay. Like every American who joined up in Canada, years before America entered the war, I immediately had my citizenship and passport revoked for the crime of fighting for the King. The fact that so many of us Americans who volunteered in the Second World War before the United States entered it lost our citizenship for the privelage of being shot at in the interests of freedom remains to this day one of the least reported and least glorious chapters in the history of our early neutrality in the conflict. The US governments attitiude was simple : to fight for Britain you have to swear allegiance to the King and to do that you lose your American citizenship. I thought about it for a moment, my pen poised above the enlistment papers that would chamge my life. Then I went ahead and signed up. There are some things more important than bits of paper."

William Ash.
"Under the Wire"

Read his book...

[Sorry my mistake not a BoB pilot as he signed up in early 1940... but he is a Spitfire pilot and a remarkable man]

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Both are cheap shots and demean the combined efforts of many, many brave dead, maimed, wounded and traumatised men (and the odd chick ) who TOGETHER defeated one of the most evil men ever to walk the planet.

I agree and that was very well said. I think some people choose to forget that and it is a shame.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Close Rog... but at least there's another person on here who has an understanding of the past...

During the War the region formally know as South Indo China was operationaly split in 2 for the creation of insurgent groups to resist the Japanese...

The North was operated by the American Secret/special forces and the South by the British...

Did you Americans never wonder why there was a North and South ?

After the war the British apointed Mountbatten as temporary Governor of South Indo China, but was prevented from uniting the country as the Americans being against colonial rule in the region blocked it, rearmed HCM and set about a campaign of disruption of the British control. This included terrorist actions resulting in deaths.

If you wish to read about this then you need to research the early years of the British SAS..

Did you Americans never wonder why the British never entered into Veitnam ?
Did you think we'd just fliped a coin and it came down tails "Sorry chaps - not this one"
Don't you reckon there had to be something 'serious' that prevented our help but was obviously politicaly sensative ?

You trained and sponsored HCM during WWII, you continued the sponsoring of him against colonial rule after WWII and when it finaly dawned on your thick rulers that he was a communist with more in common with China you dumped him and made friends quick with the South..

Vietnam was a war of the USA's making...

Simon

p.s. Rog... Mountbatten also used German SS solders, along with the Japanese and eventually British.

Sorry dude, you need to do some more research - The US (OSS) stopped support for Ho Chi Minh in 1945 due to pressure from the French government and after the "August Uprising." There is no doubt the US knew he was a commie but he was fighting against the Japanese at the time and later even protected some Japanese soldiers from the French who wanted to prosecute them for war crimes...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Close Rog... but at least there's another person on here who has an understanding of the past...

During the War the region formally know as South Indo China was operationaly split in 2 for the creation of insurgent groups to resist the Japanese...

The North was operated by the American Secret/special forces and the South by the British...

Did you Americans never wonder why there was a North and South ?

After the war the British apointed Mountbatten as temporary Governor of South Indo China, but was prevented from uniting the country as the Americans being against colonial rule in the region blocked it, rearmed HCM and set about a campaign of disruption of the British control. This included terrorist actions resulting in deaths.

If you wish to read about this then you need to research the early years of the British SAS..

Did you Americans never wonder why the British never entered into Veitnam ?
Did you think we'd just fliped a coin and it came down tails "Sorry chaps - not this one"
Don't you reckon there had to be something 'serious' that prevented our help but was obviously politicaly sensative ?

You trained and sponsored HCM during WWII, you continued the sponsoring of him against colonial rule after WWII and when it finaly dawned on your thick rulers that he was a communist with more in common with China you dumped him and made friends quick with the South..

The US never trained Terrorists as you called them to fight the UK...

Vietnam was a war of the USA's making...

Simon

And WW2 was a war of Europes making, so whats your point. So again can you please explain again why the US had to join into the war when Britian and France did and were clearly not going to do anythign about Hitler?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

"As I walked across the bridge that morning I stopped and looked down at the swirling waters, wondering where they might carry me. I was leaving a country at peace, still becalmed in the depression, and going to one at war, fighting for it survival. I was more excited than frightened. Most of my family and friends were baffled. My own government was still in the sway of those who wanted to turn a blind eye to Hilter. It was not our war. It was not my fight. I had heard it all, but I kept on walking.
For a moment when I re-entered the RCAF recruiting station, my thoughts became mundane. Would they throw me out again, for being too thin, or too fat, as if I was in some mad version of Goldilocks and the three bears ? This time however, when I stepped onto the airforce weighing scales like a prize-fighter, the entire office cheered, I was in.
But there was price to pay. Like every American who joined up in Canada, years before America entered the war, I immediately had my citizenship and passport revoked for the crime of fighting for the King. The fact that so many of us Americans who volunteered in the Second World War before the United States entered it lost our citizenship for the privelage of being shot at in the interests of freedom remains to this day one of the least reported and least glorious chapters in the history of our early neutrality in the conflict. The US governments attitiude was simple : to fight for Britain you have to swear allegiance to the King and to do that you lose your American citizenship. I thought about it for a moment, my pen poised above the enlistment papers that would chamge my life. Then I went ahead and signed up. There are some things more important than bits of paper."

William Ash.
"Under the Wire"

Read his book...

[Sorry my mistake not a BoB pilot as he signed up in early 1940... but he is a Spitfire pilot and a remarkable man]

And William Ash NEVER lost his citizenship for fighting with the RAF - The man was a Marxist and pumped out a whole bunch of anti-American propaganda, that's why he lost his citizenship - Why did didn't the remaining American members of 71, 121, 133 squadrons loose their citizenships?!?!?! Because they never denounced the US, that's why!!!! Many of their members were absorbed in the USAAF, and at least one became a Major General

"Returning to England some four year later, and still on the staff of the BBC's External Services, he began to take an active part in left-wing "Gutter Politics", frequently to the embarrassment of his employers. He soon found himself out of a job and at about the same time the Communist Party refused him membership.

Later, he was able to get work in the BBC's radio drama department as a script editor, but he never did enter the ranks of the Communist Party of Great Britain. Instead, he and others formed the Communist Party of Britain (Marxist-Leninist) and his association with it took him to China; to Paris as a secret agent; and into close relationships with leading men and women of the Left all over the world."


Eagle Squadrons

 

[pbfoot]

One question to the Brits where would all your resources come from you had for conversation's sake coal and iron but where did your oil gasoline aluminium copper nickel all of which are war critical materials come from

 

[rogthedodge]

@ all the above and the HCM points - I'm sure between us all the 'truth' is in there somewhere ( I claim 10% ) but let me re-read some of my books and see where I got some of that from.

 

[rogthedodge]

And WW2 was a war of Europes making, so whats your point. So again can you please explain again why the US had to join into the war when Britian and France did and were clearly not going to do anythign about Hitler?

(my bold)

Newb very reluctant to fall out with the super-moderator:

But do you think that comment's entirely fair - fighting to the death in inferior equipment (Fairey Battle vs. ME109 / Cruiser A 9 vs Panzer III etc etc anyone?) or under inept leadership by the Brits and French strikes me as doing 'something'.

A cheap shot, and I feel wierd even making it, is that the Brits and the French (pre-Vichy) did more 'about Hitler' than the Germans did.

Not trying to pick a fight I can only lose but couldn't let that comment go unremarked.

 

[Matt308]

And I'm not even sure what your point was. Say again?

 

[rogthedodge]

OK - if it helps here goes

DerAdlerIstGelandet states 'Britian and France did and were clearly not going to do anythign about Hitler?'

My point is we both 'did something' - fought to the death with shite equipment against vastly superior forces and that strikes me as 'kin brave!!!! (taking off in a Fairey Battle to interdict a force protected by ME109's / being a French tank commander and having a go knowing your generals were squandering any chance of success / your life etc etc)

UK and Free French continued to 'do something' in other theatres

Would the Brits have 'done something' on their own - who knows? Tube Alloys project and the massive stocks of Mustard Gas we had by '40 onwards suggests we might have done. I don't know how anyone can state with apparent certainty we would have continued to 'do nothing' in the face of the evidence!!

As per my previous posts (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/did-us-save-europe-ww2-7955-14.html#post250551) I think this thread started with, and takes, an unfortunate tone and while debate is good and healthy the collective heroic effort of all is often drowned out by the bitching.

For us (UK) to be accused of 'doing nothing' by someone with a sig celebrating the former enemy is bound to cause ire - hence my suggestion that we 'did something' about Hitler while the German people (the brave 0.2% aside) did nothing about Hitler apart from elect and fight for him!

I'm sure DerAdlerIstGelandet didn't mean his point to come out the way it did but reading what he actually wrote I felt bound to respond.

I've probably just spent half an hour digging myself a deeper hole but you did ask!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

(my bold)

Newb very reluctant to fall out with the super-moderator:

As long as things dont become insutling then there is no problem. We can discuss things all day.

But do you think that comment's entirely fair - fighting to the death in inferior equipment (Fairey Battle vs. ME109 / Cruiser A 9 vs Panzer III etc etc anyone?) or under inept leadership by the Brits and French strikes me as doing 'something'.

Yes I do think that comment is fair. bomber seems to think that the US should be ashamed (this came out of his own words) that it did not enter the war in 1939.

I have asked him again and again why and he will not answer me. Why? Because he knows this is wrong.

What I mean by not doing anything. Obviously the Brits did something, let me explain. If the Brits together with the French hadl opened up a western front when the Germans invaded Poland they could have stopped Hitler. Hitler was not ready for the war either and his Generals told him that repeatedlyl. Instead the French (who should have taken the brunt of the action) fought the "phoney war".

As for my comment about WW2 being the making of of Europe. That is 100 percent true. How is it not. Was it not British and French appeasment that allowed Hitler to grow more and more bold? Ask yourself that question.

Until the US was attacked it was not a conflict of the US. It was a European War and there was no business for the US to enter that war. China and Japan were fighting each other before the war started.

Anyone who says otherwise is wrong, sorry but it is true.

A cheap shot, and I feel wierd even making it, is that the Brits and the French (pre-Vichy) did more 'about Hitler' than the Germans did.

Not trying to pick a fight I can only lose but couldn't let that comment go unremarked.

No but it was a very stupid comment to make, especially when the person you made the comment to is American....

Therefore not a very well placed cheap shot.

Lastly the German people were not in the position to do anything about Hitler. Until he declared war he did nothing but good things for the people. If the British or the French or anyone has been in there shoes they would have allowed it as well.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

OK - if it helps here goes

DerAdlerIstGelandet states 'Britian and France did and were clearly not going to do anythign about Hitler?'

You dont understand what I am saying. Here goes...

What did the allies do when German marched in the Czech? Nothing...

What did the allies do when Germany marched into Austria? Nothing...

What did the allies do when Hitler marched into the Ruhr gebiet? Nothing...(Granted that was German land)

What did the allies do when Hitler attacked Poland? They did not invade Western Germany when they should have.

Why do I say all of this stuff because bomber wants to say the US should be shamed because they did not declare war on Germany in 1939..

That is bull, it was not a US conflict at the time.

My point is we both 'did something' - fought to the death with shite equipment against vastly superior forces and that strikes me as 'kin brave!!!! (taking off in a Fairey Battle to interdict a force protected by ME109's / being a French tank commander and having a go knowing your generals were squandering any chance of success / your life etc etc)

UK and Free French continued to 'do something' in other theatres

That was never my arguement. British and Free French along with the allies fought bravely (and if you actually read all my posts I said that the allies could not have done without the US and the US could not have done it alone either without the British and Russians along with all the other allies - to many to name at the moment).

As per my previous posts (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/did-us-save-europe-ww2-7955-14.html#post250551) I think this thread started with, and takes, an unfortunate tone and while debate is good and healthy the collective heroic effort of all is often drowned out by the bitching.

I agree with you and never have stated otherwise.

For us (UK) to be accused of 'doing nothing' by someone with a sig celebrating the former enemy is bound to cause ire - hence my suggestion that we 'did something' about Hitler while the German people (the brave 0.2% aside) did nothing about Hitler apart from elect and fight for him!

Again go and read up on your German history. The German people were not in a position to do anything and if you lived in a police state such as they did, you would not be able to do anything.

As for the German people fighting, yes they did and they did what any other person would do for the country. Fight for it. My Grandfather was a major in the German Army fighting on the Eastern Front and I am very proud of his service. At the same time my other Grandfather was in the US Army and landed in Normandy and I am very proud of his service as well.

I am very happy that my German and American grandfather found peace with oneanother and lived as friends after the war.

Now as for the celebrating the enemy? That was a pretty low and stupid comment. I will tell you that. Very cheap shot and very stupid.

I am celebrating a great fighter pilot named Erich Hartmann and there is nothing wrong with that!

Now if by that stupid comment you are implying that I am a Nazi (which 99 percent of all Germans are not) then you and me will have a problem with one another so I suggest we get this cleared up this very moment.

 

[rogthedodge]

You dont understand what I am saying. Here goes...

What did the allies do when German marched in the Czech? Nothing...

What did the allies do when Germany marched into Austria? Nothing...

What did the allies do when Hitler marched into the Ruhr gebiet? Nothing...(Granted that was German land)

What did the allies do when Hitler attacked Poland? They did not invade Western Germany when they should have.

Why do I say all of this stuff because bomber wants to say the US should be shamed because they did not declare war on Germany in 1939..

That is bull, it was not a US conflict at the time.



That was never my arguement. British and Free French along with the allies fought bravely (and if you actually read all my posts I said that the allies could not have done without the US and the US could not have done it alone either without the British and Russians along with all the other allies - to many to name at the moment).



I agree with you and never have stated otherwise.



Again go and read up on your German history. The German people were not in a position to do anything and if you lived in a police state such as they did, you would not be able to do anything.

As for the German people fighting, yes they did and they did what any other person would do for the country. Fight for it. My Grandfather was a major in the German Army fighting on the Eastern Front and I am very proud of his service. At the same time my other Grandfather was in the US Army and landed in Normandy and I am very proud of his service as well.

I am very happy that my German and American grandfather found peace with oneanother and lived as friends after the war.

Now as for the celebrating the enemy? That was a pretty low and stupid comment. I will tell you that. Very cheap shot and very stupid.

I am celebrating a great fighter pilot named Erich Hartmann and there is nothing wrong with that!

Now if by that stupid comment you are implying that I am a Nazi (which 99 percent of all Germans are not) then you and me will have a problem with one another so I suggest we get this cleared up this very moment.

My repeat of the the first / expansion post was purely as Mat308 didn't get the meaning (as you clearly did) but as it's your latest (and most angry?) response I'll address it, rather than the first.

Let me say first I think this is all based on a misunderstanding and a less than ideal choice of words by both of us - my only reason to respond at such length (and with all these multi-quotes) is to clear it up.

First 3 points you make I have no disagreeement with, although you could substitute 'allies' for 'US' and they'd still be valid.

the 4th point you raise; the BEF positioning and posture was based on an agreed plan (in which we were the junior partner and therefore obliged to comply), your suggestion (based on hindsight) is valid but was not practical for the UK alone.

Hitler was never elected? that is news to me. Of course people should fight for their country. My choice of the word 'brave' in regard to the very few germans who resisted the rise of the Nazis was wrong - 'noble' / 'right-thinking' would have been better.

Like you I recognise the bravery of the fighters on all sides and never said otherwise. Similarly I, too, find great solace in the fact that former enemies are now allies.

Perhaps you should appreciate that on the evidence shown in your sig you are German and live in Germany - how i'm supposed to deduce from that that you are American is beyond me!

I come across a post from a German (?!) stating that the British and French 'did nothing' about Hitler - how am I supposed to react?

I can't find a sufficient parallel to the apparent counter-intuity of the comment you posted: I could blame the Charles Manson for not catching the Jerry Brudon (Serial Killer - Jerry Brudos - The Lust Killer) before his 2nd murder and it would, I presume, get the same reaction

I added the point about a former enemy to expand on the reasons for my reaction to try and help explain to Mat308 why it had irked me so. Nothing wrong with celebrating the bravery shown on all sides.

Re 'Nazi' if you check I never made that accusation, the pilot you celebrate may have been a Nazi, or may not. I have no idea but I never accused you of being a Nazi. Clearly many Germans were during WW2 and many were not.

Similarly I never mentioned that Germans are (ie present tense) Nazis. FWIW I've been to Germany many times and have always enjoyed my time there - including discussions with former POW's who spent most of the war in the UK. I have no modern issue with UK/German relations - the UK's wierd stance on the EU aside.

The new expanded Germany does have a problem with Neo-Nazi groups (mainly arising from former 'ossies' as far as I can see) so I would question your '99%' statement but only by the odd %.

If you were 'all' German I'd argue UK/Germany should forge closer alliances and reign the US in more but I suspect that won't wash your other half (that's not an accusation of schizophrenia BTW)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see a few reasons for this spat (and hopefully it's no more than that)

I reacted to your post on face-evidence, not realising you were attacking a previous post.

Your 'less than clear' sig - perhaps if you had a dual flag representing your dual allegiences it would have helped - as it's presented it represents only one of your allegiences.

I should have waited to see if it was me being unclear or just that mat308 didn't get what I was saying.

Let's kill it here - delete stuff if you want / think it would help and, hopefully agree there's a shared 'blame' for us both wasting so much time over finding out we agree on so much.

I'll take 25%, you take 20% and the other 55% we'll ascribe to mat308

Has this helped?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

.

Let me say first I think this is all based on a misunderstanding and a less than ideal choice of words by both of us

Ill agree with that.

First 3 points you make I have no disagreeement with, although you could substitute 'allies' for 'US' and they'd still be valid.

That I disagree with. The US could not have done anything and it was also the US's interest to decide. It was a European Problem.

Hitler was never elected? that is news to me. Of course people should fight for their country. My choice of the word 'brave' in regard to the very few germans who resisted the rise of the Nazis was wrong - 'noble' / 'right-thinking' would have been better.

Never said he was not elected.

If you go and read up on what really happened though you will see that the German people were poor and very hurt because of what was placed on them during the versaille treaty. The Depression also did not help things.

Hitler then comes along and promises them things and will meke there life better. At that point in time he never told anyone he wanted to rule the world and kill off all the jews. He was infact voted New York Times Man of the Year for the things he did in Germany and raising them out of the ashes of WW1.

So ofcourse many people voted for him. The Germans that were not on his side and were not going to vote for him he coerced them into voting for him by causing fear in them.

Once he had control of Germany he ruled it with an iron fist. You did not say or do anything against Hitler.

Perhaps you should appreciate that on the evidence shown in your sig you are German and live in Germany - how i'm supposed to deduce from that that you are American is beyond me!

As for the sig as I said, it is a dedication to a fighter pilot...

As for me German or American. My mother is German and my father is American. I was born in Germany and lived much of my life in Germany as an American citizen. I even attended American schools and so forth. After some time in college I joined the US Army and was stationed in Germany.

The reason I have the German flag is because that is where I live at the moment with my German wife until we move to Alaska and then it will change to an American flag.

I come across a post from a German (?!) stating that the British and French 'did nothing' about Hitler - how am I supposed to react?

As I said my post was a reaction to bombers very obsurd and bull posting about the US should have entered the war in 1939 and since not doing so they should be shamed and think of all the dead of the Blitz.

Sorry that was not Americas fault and it was not Americas war yet, anyone who does not understand or want to believe that is very naive and is smoking too much pot.

Re 'Nazi' if you check I never made that accusation, the pilot you celebrate may have been a Nazi, or may not. I have no idea but I never accused you of being a Nazi. Clearly many Germans were during WW2 and many were not.

I did overeact. And as a man I will apologize to you for that.

The new expanded Germany does have a problem with Neo-Nazi groups (mainly arising from former 'ossies' as far as I can see) so I would question your '99%' statement but only by the odd %.

Unfortunatly that is correct. Fortunatly there are a vast majority of Germans that are against it and keep it in check for the most part.

I'll take 25%, you take 20% and the other 55% we'll ascribe to mat308

Has this helped?

No we can give 55% to syscom for starting this stupid thread...

 

[Hunter368]

Syscom is to blame for everything bad.

 

[syscom3]

No we can give 55% to syscom for starting this stupid thread...

Its a great thread.

Its just no one from the commonwealth countries have proved that they could have beaten Germany without the help of the US.

 

[Hunter368]

Its a great thread.

Its just no one from the commonwealth countries have proved that they could have beaten Germany without the help of the US.

Hmmmm like how the USA (by herself) could not of beaten Germany/Russia if either one had taken over all of Europe, UK and Russia?

You mean like that?



Really Syscom you lose some credibilty when you are such a red/white/blue flag waver. According to you "God" must be a American also....right?

Gets old after a while.

 

[syscom3]

Hmmmm like how the USA (by herself) could not of beaten Germany/Russia if either one had taken over all of Europe, UK and Russia?

You mean like that?

The thread isnt whether the US could have defeated Hitler on its own, but whether the commonwealth countries could have beaten germany before either germany or Russia wins.

Your right though, it does get old restating the objective of the thread.

Really Syscom you lose some credibilty when you are such a red/white/blue flag waver. According to you "God" must be a American also....right?

God is always on the side of the strongest battalions.

And yes, Europe owes its existance to the US.


Heres some figures for the commonwealth people to dwell on.

Population figures for 1940:
Australia 7,700,000
NZ 1,700,000
Canada 11,500,000
SA 11,400,000
UK 46,000,000
Total 78,300,000

USA 131,000,000

Germany 73,000,000

As you can see, the Commonwealth was short 50 million people as compared to the US.

The German and Commonwealth figures are about the same, with the advantage going to the Germans, as the commonwealth needed millions of men of military age to run its vast merchant marine and navy.

 

[Hunter368]

The thread isnt whether the US could have defeated Hitler on its own, but whether the commonwealth countries could have beaten germany before either germany or Russia wins.

And yes, Europe owes its existance to the US.

All your threads seem to be about "how the USA or USA products are better then everyone else's".

That is what gets old.....not to mention incorrect. Thats what makes you baised, one sided.......thus you lose creditablity.

Europe owes its existance to the US? You have not provided any facts on that yet. Matter of fact.....you can't. B/c you can't prove whether Russia or Germany would of won in 1944. Not to mention you cannot prove what the battle field would of looked like after one of them would of emerged as the victor. B/c you can't.

This whole thread is nothing but a huge "what if" thread that you cannot prove (USA) and Commonwealth side cannot prove.

In the end this is nothing more than a "what if thread" that cannot be proven one way or the other.

Thats a fact.

 

[pbfoot]

Can you imagine a country with less then 10% of the US population made 800k plus military vehicles and the US with more then 10 times the population was only able to make 2.3 million the American army was not even the most mechanized