Did the US save Europe in WW2?

[syscom3]

Can you imagine a country with less then 10% of the US population made 800k plus military vehicles and the US with more then 10 times the population was only able to make 2.3 million the American army was not even the most mechanized

The production figures for the US were staggering. Considering that US production didn't begin in earnest untill 1942, then its even more impressive.

BTW, the US WAS the most mechanized army in WW2.

Even the supposed "un" mechanized divisions tended to grab and keep a vast array of vehicals even when not authorized.

The exception being in the PTO.

Heres the figures for the production of military trucks, an excellent indicator on the level of mechanization for an army.

Military Trucks
1. United States = 2,382,311
2. Canada = 815,729
3. United Kingdom = 480,943
4. Germany = 345,914
5. Soviet Union = 197,100
6. Japan = 165,945
7. Italy = 83,000

Now remember that figure for the US is really only showing what was produced 1942 and after. Canada and the UK had nearly 3 years of production included in their figures.

 

[pbfoot]

I beg to differ my sources show that the Canadian Army was with 1 vehicle for every 3 troops also 50% of aluminium used and 90% of nickel (real handy for alloys such as armour) came from Canada we also made possible the A bombs with another resource called Uranium.So I can make the arguement without Canada would the US have the natural resources to win?

 

[syscom3]

I beg to differ my sources show that the Canadian Army was with 1 vehicle for every 3 troops also 50% of aluminium used and 90% of nickel (real handy for alloys such as armour) came from Canada we also made possible the A bombs with another resource called Uranium.So I can make the arguement without Canada would the US have the natural resources to win?

The US had all the resources on hand for what it needed to do in the fight in the pacific.

And of course, using your statistics, the Canadian Army was probably the most mechanized in the world. But only one problem. It was also quite small compared to everyone else.

And again, the question is if the Commonwealth could beat the Germans prior to 1945.

And the answer is a resounding no.

 

[pbfoot]

The US had all the resources on hand for what it needed to do in the fight in the pacific.

And of course, using your statistics, the Canadian Army was probably the most mechanized in the world. But only one problem. It was also quite small compared to everyone else.

And again, the question is if the Commonwealth could beat the Germans prior to 1945.

And the answer is a resounding no.

I'm not arguing with your statement nor have I but I can make the claim without the commonwealth the US position would have been in much different straights and we contibuted more than our populations might indicate but this is not always clear as we get clumped with the Brits

 

[syscom3]

I'm not arguing with your statement nor have I but I can make the claim without the commonwealth the US position would have been in much different straights and we contibuted more than our populations might indicate but this is not always clear as we get clumped with the Brits

No one is denying the contributions the Canadians made.

But you simply were a small nation and the size of your armed forces and industrial output reflected that.

And again, it boils down to this.

The US provided the industrial supremacy and lots of soldiers to make an allied victory inevitable. Without the US, Europe would be speaking German or Russian. Take your pick.

 

[rogthedodge]

@ DerAdlerIstGelandet

Cheers - we should meet up for a handshake and a glass of decent beer - ie Belgian or German - none of that American crap

In the interests of killing this spat stone dead:

Where I said 'sig' I meant the whole thing: your handle, the flag, and the actual 'sig' ie the picture.

You're right, I meant sysycom3 not mat308

Mustn't get my septics mixed up

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@ pbfoot - many of us Brits, fewer than I'd like but anyway, recognise the stirling contribution Canada made to the effort, without you we'd have been f***ed before the US got around to joining in (properly).

The quote I recall 'Ready, aye, ready' stands tall in my memory and I and many other will never forget the contribution you guys made to the cause.

The commemoration of the allied effort I saw in just two weeks in virtually every town we stoppped at made me question how much we brits don't commemorate - without getting all 'gwyneth' about it I found it deeply moving and very touching

Based on my visit to that Corvette in Halifax harbour last year it seemed that some Cannucks were a bit taken aback by how much I (we) felt we owed to you. Whatever it's appreciated and will never be forgotten.

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@ the general contoversy / syscom3 - wierd isn't it that while it 'was not America's war', yet no-one seems to question Canada's immediate and unflinching support - surely they could have played the 'it's a long way away, we'll worry about it when it gets nearer' card too??

 

[syscom3]

@ the general contoversy / syscom3 - wierd isn't it that while it 'was not America's war', yet no-one seems to question Canada's immediate and unflinching support - surely they could have played the 'it's a long way away, we'll worry about it when it gets nearer' card too??

Canada had far stronger ties to GB than the US did.

 

[rogthedodge]

Ah but that was your choice - but for a rush of blood you could still be in the club

 

[pbfoot]

I believe europe would be speaking either German or Russian but certainly would've been using German Currency . I don't think any land invasion of Europe could or would be attempted by the Brits or the Commonwealth we just didn't have the the total package to wage the type of war required.
The Luftwaffe would have had a much easier time time defending the Reich and would be able to divert substanial resources to the Eastern Front. The troops tied up in Italy and France also would be heading east ,and I'd garrison France and the low countries with some of the other axis troops Romania , Hungary etc .
Italy would be quite capable of defending itself
Britian and the Commonwealth would not surrender but would probably be forced to seek a truce as the war dragged on it , unable to keep up on technology due to lack of funds, war is an expensive business.

 

[syscom3]

I believe europe would be speaking either German or Russian but certainly would've been using German Currency . I don't think any land invasion of Europe could or would be attempted by the Brits or the Commonwealth we just didn't have the the total package to wage the type of war required.
The Luftwaffe would have had a much easier time time defending the Reich and would be able to divert substanial resources to the Eastern Front. The troops tied up in Italy and France also would be heading east ,and I'd garrison France and the low countries with some of the other axis troops Romania , Hungary etc .
Italy would be quite capable of defending itself
Britian and the Commonwealth would not surrender but would probably be forced to seek a truce as the war dragged on it , unable to keep up on technology due to lack of funds, war is an expensive business.

Well reasoned out PB.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Another thing you have to look at is this. Germany had a lot of troops in Italy as well. If the US had not entered the war the Commonwealth certainly would not have had eneogh troops to do an invasion of Italy and N. France. Therefore the Germans could bring there troops out of Italy along with the Italian troops to fight on the western front if the Commonwealth came to an invasion of N. France.

Germany would not have been fighting on so many fronts basically is what I am saying.

 

[CRASHGATE3]

Ive been really enjoying reading this thread .
Just a question....when you say speaking German or Russian,do you mean just governed/ruled by Germany or Russia?I cant see the English language ,or any European dying out...the Japanese still speak Japanese after WW2.I know circumstances were different and the Nazi/Russian leaders might have been more pursuasive ,but.......
Has there been any conflicts where a language has been lost...? ...native Americans ?

 

[syscom3]

Heres a list of aircraft production for WW2.

Aircraft
1. United States = 324,750
2. Germany = 189,307
3. Soviet Union = 157,261
4. United Kingdom = 131,549
5. Japan = 76,320
6. Canada = 16,431
7. Italy = 11,122
8. Other Commonwealth = 3,081
9. Hungary = 1,046
10. Romania = 1,000


What the list doesn't show is the production rates per month.

In 1944, the US was building aircraft at a rate that was quadruple that of the commonwealth combined.

Again, another statistic indicating just how the lack of manufacturing capacity the Commonwealth had, in trying to build an airforce large enough to take on the LW.

 

[bomber]

How many Commonwealth pilots were sat around waiting for planes to be made ?

I mean no point in making loads of planes if your rookie pilots can't hold a formation together or fly at night now is there ?

Supply and Demand takes precidence doesn't it... we were too busy making toilet rolls because we were housing and feeding the US invasion army that was stationed over here

Simon

 

[syscom3]

How many Commonwealth pilots were sat around waiting for planes to be made ?

The commonwealth had a smaller population base in which to draw from, as opposed the US. You AF (and naval air) would be smaller because of that.

Supply and Demand takes precidence doesn't it... we were too busy making toilet rolls because we were housing and feeding the US invasion army that was stationed over here

We brought our own.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We brought our own.

Well US toilet paper certainly is better than European Toilet Paper!

Charmin Baby!!!! Like heaven on your ass!!!

 

[Hunter368]

Well US toilet paper certainly is better than European Toilet Paper!

Charmin Baby!!!! Like heaven on your ass!!!

If you use that European paper you had better have a pair of nail cleaners with you also.

 

[Hop]

Aircraft
1. United States = 324,750
2. Germany = 189,307
3. Soviet Union = 157,261
4. United Kingdom = 131,549
5. Japan = 76,320
6. Canada = 16,431
7. Italy = 11,122
8. Other Commonwealth = 3,081
9. Hungary = 1,046
10. Romania = 1,000

The figures look a bit off, especially for Germany. I wouldn't trust Wikipedia as a resource, particularly when other wikipedia pages contradict that one.

The USSBS gave German aircraft production 1939 - 1944 as 111,247, with production of just under 40,000 in 1944. Production collapsed fairly early in 1945.

The usual figure given for German production is just under 120,000.

The USAAF reported US aircraft production of 264,200 from July 1940 - Feb 1945. Production was running about 1,000 per quarter at the start of that period, so assume a max of about 4,000 aircraft between the start of the war and July 1940. Production in the 4th quarter of 1944 was just over 20,000 a quarter, and falling very quickly (about 26,000 in the first quarter of 1944).

If you assume 270,000 up to the beginning of 1945, then production would have had to increase sharply again in 1945, and I've never seen anything to suggest it did.

In 1944, the US was building aircraft at a rate that was quadruple that of the commonwealth combined.

It was actually about 3 times Commonwealth production in 1944.

Again, another statistic indicating just how the lack of manufacturing capacity the Commonwealth had, in trying to build an airforce large enough to take on the LW.

Well, the UK produced more aircraft than Germany in WW2. When you factor in weight, as the British produced lots of heavy bombers, the Germans lots of fighters, the UK greatly outproduced Germany, about 615 million pounds structure weight in the period 1941 - 1944, compared to 470 million pounds.

Britain produced more aircraft engines as well, about 242,000 1939 - 1944, compared to 185,000 in Germany.

The Luftwaffe would have had a much easier time time defending the Reich and would be able to divert substanial resources to the Eastern Front. The troops tied up in Italy and France also would be heading east ,and I'd garrison France and the low countries with some of the other axis troops Romania , Hungary etc .

The problem is, by the time the US buildup in Europe really started to gather steam, the Germans had already lost in Russia.

If you look at the high point of the German advance, it was in the summer of 1942. By that time, the US army presence in Europe was negligible, the USAAF were flying only tiny numbers of sorties to easy targets in France.

By the end of 1942 the Germans were on the ropes in Russia, and still the US presence in Europe was negligible

Certainly without the US the Germans could have diverted some forces to the eastern front in 1943 and 1944, but the German's position was well beyond recovery by that time, and it was really only a question of how fast they retreated.

Italy would be quite capable of defending itself

Italy was completely incapable of defending itself against Britain.

Without German assistance, the British and Commonwealth forces in Italy would have taken the country in short order.

Without US involvement in Europe/North Africa, the war would have gone much the same up to the summer of 1942. Torch would have gone ahead solely with British/Commonwealth forces, and probably taken a bit longer, but by summer 1943 the British would have been in a position to menace Italy, although not to invade whilst the Germans still had substantial numbers of troops in the country.

The German offensive at Kursk would have failed regardless, and from that point on they would be on the retreat in Russia even if every single German soldier, tank and aircraft was committed against them.

I should think the Germans would hold on longer in such a scenario, probably until the autumn of 1945, maybe even the end of the year.

As to speaking Russian, I'd expect the zones of influence agreed between the British and Russians to give almost all of Germany to the Russians, but not France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

 

[Lucky13]

So we're not using newspaper anymere then??

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If you use that European paper you had better have a pair of nail cleaners with you also.

I actually find the Euro Toilet Paper to be similiar to sand paper...

I only use Charmin!