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The point is they never LOST their nationality, that was idle threat that was quickly swept under the rug....
And no one ever said the Eagle Squadron fought in the B of B.
Both are cheap shots and demean the combined efforts of many, many brave dead, maimed, wounded and traumatised men (and the odd chick) who TOGETHER defeated one of the most evil men ever to walk the planet.
Close Rog... but at least there's another person on here who has an understanding of the past...
During the War the region formally know as South Indo China was operationaly split in 2 for the creation of insurgent groups to resist the Japanese...
The North was operated by the American Secret/special forces and the South by the British...
Did you Americans never wonder why there was a North and South ?
After the war the British apointed Mountbatten as temporary Governor of South Indo China, but was prevented from uniting the country as the Americans being against colonial rule in the region blocked it, rearmed HCM and set about a campaign of disruption of the British control. This included terrorist actions resulting in deaths.
If you wish to read about this then you need to research the early years of the British SAS..
Did you Americans never wonder why the British never entered into Veitnam ?
Did you think we'd just fliped a coin and it came down tails "Sorry chaps - not this one"
Don't you reckon there had to be something 'serious' that prevented our help but was obviously politicaly sensative ?
You trained and sponsored HCM during WWII, you continued the sponsoring of him against colonial rule after WWII and when it finaly dawned on your thick rulers that he was a communist with more in common with China you dumped him and made friends quick with the South..
Vietnam was a war of the USA's making...
Simon
p.s. Rog... Mountbatten also used German SS solders, along with the Japanese and eventually British.
Close Rog... but at least there's another person on here who has an understanding of the past...
During the War the region formally know as South Indo China was operationaly split in 2 for the creation of insurgent groups to resist the Japanese...
The North was operated by the American Secret/special forces and the South by the British...
Did you Americans never wonder why there was a North and South ?
After the war the British apointed Mountbatten as temporary Governor of South Indo China, but was prevented from uniting the country as the Americans being against colonial rule in the region blocked it, rearmed HCM and set about a campaign of disruption of the British control. This included terrorist actions resulting in deaths.
If you wish to read about this then you need to research the early years of the British SAS..
Did you Americans never wonder why the British never entered into Veitnam ?
Did you think we'd just fliped a coin and it came down tails "Sorry chaps - not this one"
Don't you reckon there had to be something 'serious' that prevented our help but was obviously politicaly sensative ?
You trained and sponsored HCM during WWII, you continued the sponsoring of him against colonial rule after WWII and when it finaly dawned on your thick rulers that he was a communist with more in common with China you dumped him and made friends quick with the South..
bomber said:Vietnam was a war of the USA's making...
Simon
And William Ash NEVER lost his citizenship for fighting with the RAF - The man was a Marxist and pumped out a whole bunch of anti-American propaganda, that's why he lost his citizenship - Why did didn't the remaining American members of 71, 121, 133 squadrons loose their citizenships?!?!?! Because they never denounced the US, that's why!!!! Many of their members were absorbed in the USAAF, and at least one became a Major General"As I walked across the bridge that morning I stopped and looked down at the swirling waters, wondering where they might carry me. I was leaving a country at peace, still becalmed in the depression, and going to one at war, fighting for it survival. I was more excited than frightened. Most of my family and friends were baffled. My own government was still in the sway of those who wanted to turn a blind eye to Hilter. It was not our war. It was not my fight. I had heard it all, but I kept on walking.
For a moment when I re-entered the RCAF recruiting station, my thoughts became mundane. Would they throw me out again, for being too thin, or too fat, as if I was in some mad version of Goldilocks and the three bears ? This time however, when I stepped onto the airforce weighing scales like a prize-fighter, the entire office cheered, I was in.
But there was price to pay. Like every American who joined up in Canada, years before America entered the war, I immediately had my citizenship and passport revoked for the crime of fighting for the King. The fact that so many of us Americans who volunteered in the Second World War before the United States entered it lost our citizenship for the privelage of being shot at in the interests of freedom remains to this day one of the least reported and least glorious chapters in the history of our early neutrality in the conflict. The US governments attitiude was simple : to fight for Britain you have to swear allegiance to the King and to do that you lose your American citizenship. I thought about it for a moment, my pen poised above the enlistment papers that would chamge my life. Then I went ahead and signed up. There are some things more important than bits of paper."
William Ash.
"Under the Wire"
Read his book...
[Sorry my mistake not a BoB pilot as he signed up in early 1940... but he is a Spitfire pilot and a remarkable man]
(my bold)And WW2 was a war of Europes making, so whats your point. So again can you please explain again why the US had to join into the war when Britian and France did and were clearly not going to do anythign about Hitler?
(my bold)
Newb very reluctant to fall out with the super-moderator:
rogthedodge said:But do you think that comment's entirely fair - fighting to the death in inferior equipment (Fairey Battle vs. ME109 / Cruiser A 9 vs Panzer III etc etc anyone?) or under inept leadership by the Brits and French strikes me as doing 'something'.
rogthedodge said:A cheap shot, and I feel wierd even making it, is that the Brits and the French (pre-Vichy) did more 'about Hitler' than the Germans did.
Not trying to pick a fight I can only lose but couldn't let that comment go unremarked.
OK - if it helps here goes
DerAdlerIstGelandet states 'Britian and France did and were clearly not going to do anythign about Hitler?'
rogthedodge said:My point is we both 'did something' - fought to the death with shite equipment against vastly superior forces and that strikes me as 'kin brave!!!! (taking off in a Fairey Battle to interdict a force protected by ME109's / being a French tank commander and having a go knowing your generals were squandering any chance of success / your life etc etc)
UK and Free French continued to 'do something' in other theatres
rogthedodge said:As per my previous posts (http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/did-us-save-europe-ww2-7955-14.html#post250551) I think this thread started with, and takes, an unfortunate tone and while debate is good and healthy the collective heroic effort of all is often drowned out by the bitching.
rogthedodge said:For us (UK) to be accused of 'doing nothing' by someone with a sig celebrating the former enemy is bound to cause ire - hence my suggestion that we 'did something' about Hitler while the German people (the brave 0.2% aside) did nothing about Hitler apart from elect and fight for him!
You dont understand what I am saying. Here goes...
What did the allies do when German marched in the Czech? Nothing...
What did the allies do when Germany marched into Austria? Nothing...
What did the allies do when Hitler marched into the Ruhr gebiet? Nothing...(Granted that was German land)
What did the allies do when Hitler attacked Poland? They did not invade Western Germany when they should have.
Why do I say all of this stuff because bomber wants to say the US should be shamed because they did not declare war on Germany in 1939..
That is bull, it was not a US conflict at the time.
That was never my arguement. British and Free French along with the allies fought bravely (and if you actually read all my posts I said that the allies could not have done without the US and the US could not have done it alone either without the British and Russians along with all the other allies - to many to name at the moment).
I agree with you and never have stated otherwise.
Again go and read up on your German history. The German people were not in a position to do anything and if you lived in a police state such as they did, you would not be able to do anything.
As for the German people fighting, yes they did and they did what any other person would do for the country. Fight for it. My Grandfather was a major in the German Army fighting on the Eastern Front and I am very proud of his service. At the same time my other Grandfather was in the US Army and landed in Normandy and I am very proud of his service as well.
I am very happy that my German and American grandfather found peace with oneanother and lived as friends after the war.
Now as for the celebrating the enemy? That was a pretty low and stupid comment. I will tell you that. Very cheap shot and very stupid.
I am celebrating a great fighter pilot named Erich Hartmann and there is nothing wrong with that!
Now if by that stupid comment you are implying that I am a Nazi (which 99 percent of all Germans are not) then you and me will have a problem with one another so I suggest we get this cleared up this very moment.
.
Let me say first I think this is all based on a misunderstanding and a less than ideal choice of words by both of us
rogthedodge said:First 3 points you make I have no disagreeement with, although you could substitute 'allies' for 'US' and they'd still be valid.
rogthedodge said:Hitler was never elected? that is news to me. Of course people should fight for their country. My choice of the word 'brave' in regard to the very few germans who resisted the rise of the Nazis was wrong - 'noble' / 'right-thinking' would have been better.
rogthedodge said:Perhaps you should appreciate that on the evidence shown in your sig you are German and live in Germany - how i'm supposed to deduce from that that you are American is beyond me!
rogthedodge said:I come across a post from a German (?!) stating that the British and French 'did nothing' about Hitler - how am I supposed to react?
rogthedodge said:Re 'Nazi' if you check I never made that accusation, the pilot you celebrate may have been a Nazi, or may not. I have no idea but I never accused you of being a Nazi. Clearly many Germans were during WW2 and many were not.
rogthedodge said:The new expanded Germany does have a problem with Neo-Nazi groups (mainly arising from former 'ossies' as far as I can see) so I would question your '99%' statement but only by the odd %.
rogthedodge said:I'll take 25%, you take 20% and the other 55% we'll ascribe to mat308
Has this helped?
No we can give 55% to syscom for starting this stupid thread...
Its a great thread.
Its just no one from the commonwealth countries have proved that they could have beaten Germany without the help of the US.
Hmmmm like how the USA (by herself) could not of beaten Germany/Russia if either one had taken over all of Europe, UK and Russia?
You mean like that?
Really Syscom you lose some credibilty when you are such a red/white/blue flag waver. According to you "God" must be a American also....right?
The thread isnt whether the US could have defeated Hitler on its own, but whether the commonwealth countries could have beaten germany before either germany or Russia wins.
And yes, Europe owes its existance to the US.