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It was US production and manpower that made it possible for the allies to win. After all, if it was all that great, why did we have to give you the airplanes, ships and supply the troops?
The same is true of 'no UK no Allied victory'.No US in the European war, no allied victory.
I think its been fairly well proven by others that the Panther and Tiger were quite superior to their US/UK counterparts. And they were only defeated in the long run by superior US production.
Unfortunatly, your fighters didnt have the range necessary to get to where the LW was flying over. Namely Germany.
Is that why you needed our B24's for sub patrols, our escort carriers, destroyers and escorts for convoy protection?
Nobody gave the UK anything. It was all bought and paid for. Naturaly after all the UK assetts were depleted the lender kindly gave credit. It was all paid for in full.
It was nice of the UK to 'lend' you 500 Shermans in late 1944 when you ran out of replacements.
The same is true of 'no UK no Allied victory'.
And all those tanks and planes fought on their own without any crews?
Your house catches fire and the fire brigade come and put it out. Do you then say 'thanks guys for your help but the real credit belongs with those who made the fire engine'.
Why do some people try and grab the credit for everything?
Like that great long range Mustang with its great US engine. Following your logic as it was a UK engine all the credit belongs to the UK.
Doesnt matter what the terms were. If the US didnt have the material on hand, you werent getting it at all.
It must have been a week long shutdown of the Detroit arsenal. Yes, we were making that many tanks a week.
Couldnt have won the battle in Europe without you, but we definatly came into the fight at the right time,
Without the US being in the war in Europe, there is no need for us to have the P51. The PTO was "owned" by the P38, and then finally the P47N.
no one has proven me wrong.
Without the USA getting involved, the might of the German Arm would have been unstoppable, what with all the resouces that can now be sent to the Russian Front instead of sitting in France...kenny said:You mean when the Soviets broke the back of the Germany army?
Anything bought and paid for belongs to the purchaser. 'You' never gave anything.
I presume that means you had no idea about the chronic US Sherman shortage. The UK managed to get the replacement rate right and bought and paid for enough tanks to cover its losses. Others made the wrong calculation andsuffered
You mean when the Soviets broke the back of the Germany army?
Nice swerve but you had no reply anyway.
Yawn.........................yeah you are so good at this. How could anyone prove you wrong on anything.
Next you will be telling us that if it weren't for your locomotives Russia would have lost the war!
Without the USA getting involved, the might of the German Arm would have been unstoppable, what with all the resouces that can now be sent to the Russian Front instead of sitting in France...
Its actually irrelevat to the discussion. It was US manpower and material wholelly owned by the US govt that provided the margin of victory.
Building 50,000 tanks and we had a chronic shortage? Interesting fact you invented.
But then again, it just proves my point that the German tanks were so superior to the allied designs that we could build them by the tens of thousands and still be short!
Are you on about the ones that took on the bulk of the German tank force in Normandy? All those Tigers/Tiger II and and Panthers you think so highly of?By the way, how many armoured divisons did the BA use in France?
Those locomotives helped them to win the war.
Yes the 800.000 GI's in France did all the work whilst the 650,000 Commonwealth ones sat around doing nothing.
If you have any information as to why the US had to ask for 500 Shermans from UK stocks please enlighten us. There was a shortage of medium tanks in US AD's and this was made worse by the serious losses suffered in the Bulge fighting. Clearly you are not as well informed as you would like to believe. Keep on digging.
More T34's were produced than Shermans. Again you do not have a good enough grasp of the figures to be taken seriously.
Are you on about the ones that took on the bulk of the German tank force in Normandy? All those Tigers/Tiger II and and Panthers you think so highly of?
What? A small fraction of the total Soviet stock and all sent from mid '44 onwards when the war was won. How did they help in the overall picture
Those 800,000 troops are the numbers needed to win the war in favor of the allies. You proved my point, didnt you? 650,000 commonwealth troops couldn't do the job, but 1.5 million allied troops did.
Like I said, you again proved my point. You couldnt build enough tanks on your own, so we had to supply you. Then couple that fact with the German superiority in armour. So this little misdirection ploy of yours proves nothing.
And once again you proved my point. Not only were the US and UK tanks inferior to the German types, but also inferior to the Russians! But then again, the T34 was in mass production a couple years earlier than the Sherman, so that type had a head start. But numbers dont lie, and I dont make excuses.
But there was one difference between the Commonwealth army and the US 3rd army..... and that was of mobility and of a command structure (read Patton) that was intent on proving his own theories on how armies should run at full speed and not prod around.
The soviets were hard pressed in supply for a multitude of erasons, and this type of help was a force multiplier for them. Something had to pull the freight cars from their factories in the Urals!
Sorry but your point was without the US troops the Allies would not have won. It is certainly arguable that the Russian could have ended the war without US intervention.
I have seen nothing that suggests the US could manage on its own. No one denies it was an ALLIED effort and it is jarring to hear the claim that steelworkers in the US 'won' the war and without their efforts the war was lost.
Oh it is not a ploy. You claimed that the US had tanks coming out of its ears and yet in Europe it struggled to run its Armored Division at there alloted strength. Worse still they had to borrow tanks because they got the figures/deliveries wrong. I would say my 'misdirection' illustrates a lack of any understanding of the reality. Strange coming from one who boasts 'no one has proven me wrong'
Not that much in it. In June 1941 less than 1000 T34's had been made and the first Sherman rolled out in January 1942.
Another difference would be the strength of the enemy facing you. Kicking in an open door is always easier than a barred, locked and heavily defended one.
Patton?
Would the book I should read be the one where it is claimed more Germans panzers were destroyed by 3rd Army than were actualy in the whole of western Europe?
Patton who was stopped from attacking the Germans at Falaise because his superior thought he would be flattened by the German riposte?
Metz anyone?
Maybe you are right. The 676,000 Soviet rail cars were not as important as the 11,075 supplied by the US.
The 25,000 Soviet Locos were outperformed by the 2000 US supplied ones.
Even though non of them were sent before 1944 they shipped all the goods from the Urals factories in 1941,1942,1943 and most of 1944.
Isnt it amazing the US produced so much, we had extra engines to give away?
Again you fail to show how the commonwealth alone could have defeated the Germans before the Russians could (and even that was arguable).
And none of this "The US needed us to win the war".
This thread is if the US stayed out of the fight in Europe and YOU were on your own.
I don't understand why you seem so certain that the war in the East would be wholly decided by 1944. Explain why, in your mind, there's no chance of the war dragging on beyond then.
The British production increased throughout the entirety of the war; and the British Commonwealth production increased massively. Canadian Pacific Locomotive works in Montréal made thousands of tanks during World War II. India provided the majority of ammo used by Commonwealth forces in the CBI.
I do not show a lack of understanding at all; I'm showing a perfect understanding of your nature. Your argument is based purely on that it didn't happen, not that it couldn't have happened.
The British Commonwealth had the factories, industry and know how to deploy in wartime which would over-whelm the German Wehrmacht - eventually. The Commonwealth had a manpower base larger than the U.S; which provided a work-force and a fighting-force.
The U.S intervention meant that the Commonwealth did not have to gear up to such a large extent but could concentrate on using its men to fight, while the U.S provided the economic muscle.
And there were many African troops in the British Army during World War II - in fact, there was no colony that didn't participate. So, it's pretty safe to say that the manpower was there to be used.
The production was enough to grind Germany into the ground; the only difference with reality is that it would have taken longer. The U.S.A provided a spurt of economic power that ended the war sooner.
And what is your infatuation with the navy? The Royal Navy was larger than the U.S Navy at the start of World War II - and was always big enough to handle the Kriegsmarine; as it mostly did during World War II anyway.
syscom, I don't mean to offend (seriously) but I think it's recognised that I know a bit more than you about the AFVs of World War II. And since your first comment was along the lines of the Allies only matching the Germans in the last few months then you're still wrong.
The British tanks were equal or superior to the German AFVs in 1939-1940; the Russian T-34 was superior until the introduction of the Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf F/2 in 1941. The Panther didn't arrive until 1943 - and the Tiger late 1942.
The Tiger set the bench-mark three years after the war had started - and by 1943 the British were building the Cromwell and well on their way to deploying the Comet in 1944 - equal and superior to the Sherman respectively.
You best go tell the Whirlwind pilots they weren't flying over Germany. And since the Mustang was a British order - then it'd have soon been in RAF colours over Germany anyway.
On top of that, a lot of specialist German production was in Holland and France - ever heard of the Phillips Factory Raid in Holland ? Operation Oyster - or maybe the British raid on the Cologne power plant?
Operation Pointblank was a combined offensive with the initial stages being handed to RAF 2 Group attacking airfields in France. Given the right equipment, the RAF would have been much more able during the day. The reality of it all is when the USAAF stepped for the daytime - the RAF concentrated on the night, and any day RAF raiders were left to their own devices. And were generally ill-equipped ; since they should have all been Mosquitos.
And the point of mentioning Operation Crossbow was obvious, but I'll explain - You talk about numbers all the time; Operation Crossbow is a perfect example where the RAF did better with less numbers. We didn't need the USAAF numbers, fact.
I say; if the USAAF was so big - why did you borrow Spitfires off us?
Again, Noone has offered proof that the Commonwelath had the resources necessary to defeat the Germans alone.
]Again.....its quite evident, that the US provided the material and manpower to ensure an allied victory!
OOOOOH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!Without the US, the Europe would have been dominated by Germany or Russia!
It is your straw man argument Reverse it and it is equaly true that US resources could not defeat Germany alone. Note though that only you feel the need to puff out your chest and actively slight one of the other Allied powers.
True the addition of the US made the scales tilt in the Allied direction but only because they were nearly in blance to begin with. The USSR gave more in % terms than the US. They and they (virtualy) alone destroyed the German Army.
Thus you can say is the US contribution finaly tipped the balance. Saying it could have done it unaided in just speculation.
Europe owes us an unending debt of gratitude for that!
LOL
You really like this arguing, don't you Syscom
True is true, we owe this to the US as you say, but we also owe a great deal of gratitude to the UK as we know we couldn't have been liberated if it weren't for the both, Commonwealth and US!
So all of you are right in my opinion!