Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[drgondog]

your sorce give reason to Dave, the handbook speed it's around 475 mph...

That is correct - and for a full load of fuel and ammunition and external racks. I wasn't disputing Dave's comment - I was giving him the USAF data for operational P-51H - not NAA data.

The question/doubt raised was whether the P-51H was capable of 487mph and the answer is 'yes' just by removing the fuel tank/bomb racks. There were P-51H racers that achieved nearly 500 mph at SL - but all stripped and light.

The SL speed is 413mph with full load of ammo and internal fuel and an initial climb rate at SL of 5480 fpm with full internal load out.

 

[Vincenzo]

That is correct - and for a full load of fuel and ammunition and external racks. I wasn't disputing Dave's comment - I was giving him the USAF data for operational P-51H - not NAA data.

The question/doubt raised was whether the P-51H was capable of 487mph and the answer is 'yes' just by removing the fuel tank/bomb racks. There were P-51H racers that achieved nearly 500 mph at SL - but all stripped and light.

The SL speed is 413mph with full load of ammo and internal fuel and an initial climb rate at SL of 5480 fpm with full internal load out.

the speed is give to combat weight so with some fuel consumed, and for true the weight not influnce many the level speed as you can see in handbook the 51H go to 412 knts (474 mph) at 8275 pounds weight and go to 410 knts (472 mph) at 9430 pound of weight.

the north american calculation at 9450 pounds give 471 mph (difference maybe only round) (the doc P-51H Performance it's one of two source of handbook)

a 1946 test give only a 451 mph at 9544 pounds, P-51H Performance Test

 

[jim]

I am extremely hungry with your post . I will be polite in respect of the others readers. I dont care now about D9 ,i disagree with your comments so do the laws of physice but i dont care wright now.
How do you dare to claim that the crime of Dresden shortened the war even by a second?????????????????????
The burning of up to 500000 people , mostly refugees from Silesia , the strafing of fire brigades and ambulances , in a city of no heavy war industry was not an obvious autrocity? And the rail station was undamaged! Why? Because was comitted by alleis? The starvation to death of thousands german prisoners during the last months and the immediate after months of the war wasnt an autrocity? The forcing of prisoners to clear mine fields with bear hands ,the forced labor for years after the war ,was because" war is barbaric, what can we do?" Your Jabos roaring without resistance across germany strafing and bombing villages, cottages, farms , villagers , hospitals, cows ,sheeps, dogs were"" in the heat of the batlle" .B17s after destroying all big cities attacked 10000-20000 thousand population small towns that had not produced not one bullet, "in the heat of the battle"
If is justifiable to machine gun the enemy even when knocked out why was captain Eck , the only U boat commander known to have killed merchant survivors,was executed? And the commander of Wahoo ,the top American Ace who many times machined gunned survivors ,is a hero . Pt boats ,aircrafts, submarines machined gunned survivors, many times under orders, killed japanese at sea. Have you heard of the "LACONIA incident"?With that logic why gestapo executings of prisoners trying to escape was a crime , if they succeded they would fight germans Again (dont get me wrong ,of course i consider it a crime) .
What makes me mad is the diferent criteria of judging things. Crime is a crime, no matter who commeted it. Germany unfortunately along USSR and japan did the gratest Number .And recoghises it. And has paid the price. With the pogroms of populations of her eastern provinces , with the extreme rate of death of her new born children for years after the war due to bad feeding and lack of drugs, . Still she is most responsible
But everyone must admit his errors .Otherwise repeats them in future wars.
Davparir , now i am sitting in a safe chair. Tommorow morning my chair will not be safe at all.
I am sorry if insulted all americans , my problem is with those few that have different criteria of judjing things . For the few thousands who made bad things there is the rest of America who helped all Europe to recover

 

[renrich]

As far as shooting pilots in their parachute is concerned, I have a book, (somewhere) entitled "Horrido" written I believe by a Brit and an American that I am sure states that LW pilots were instructed not to fire on pilots in parachutes. Can anyone comment on that book or on it's veracity and accuracy? Dav, I agree with you that an enemy pilot in a parachute is no different than, say, a crewman fleeing from a tank which has been put out of action. However, I understand that both sides mostly refrained from shooting at tank crewman under those circumstances in N Africa. Is that a myth also?

One of my uncles in the Pacific during WW2 said that it was common to send DDs with depth charges to kill Japanese survivors from sinkings. However, they were known to resist surrender.

 

[tango35]

Please,Please,... stop this unfruitful discussion about warcrimes, etc..
The Thread is about P51 vs Fw 190 D9and not more. If you want to discussother things it make a new thread.

And for this thread i think all important things are said, i have to thank the writers for the constructive statements.

T

 

[Njaco]

Hey Jim, chill out!!! I have no idea where you get your info but can you give some sources for this??!!

Starving people AFTER the war? Where did you hear about this? Have you ever heard of the mercy flights into the Netherlands in the immediate months following VE day?

Strafing civilians? Bombing non-military targets? Ever hear of the Bournemouth attacks by the Luftwaffe? Or how about Coventry? How about the Baedeker Raids where the only choosing of targets was from a travel brochure!!!!!

There is so much disinformation that you've probably read or revisionist history.

I guess next you'll be telling us the Allies made brick ovens and sold them to Germany - oohhh those bad Allies!

Agree with Tango - lets stay on topic or make a new thread.

 

[tango35]

Hey NJACO,
calm down please. And there are enough evidences that both side bombed civilian targets like Hospitals , etc. ( e.g. alone here in Hannover 12 Hospitals, Churches, etc.) were bombed. And is under the law of combat a Hospital a target ? I and the law dont think so.
And if you need evidences than i would recommend you the archives of Hamburg, Dresden and other nice cities, of course to be neutral the german forces made the same mistakes not to bomb military targets.

For you arrogant comment about the ovens - yes thats a real and unique german thing; but for sterilizing disabled persons it was done as well in the States ( see Supreme Court Oliver Wendell Holmes, Buck vs Bell 1927)

SO, both side did things they shouldnt, but this thread isnt the place for discussing it.

Thomas

 

[Erich]

continue this silly banter gentlemen and this thread will be shut down. there is some useful information in the posts if you pick through it but at all cost do not GET OFF TOPIC discussing shooting of civilians, Dresden pilots in parachutes, etc...........if you will please note we have covered this in the past and if you must then go to those particular postings/threads

am hopeful you will understand and not stray off the subject manner again

I am having a kick-Ass day so be on your guard 8)

 

[davparlr]

That is correct - and for a full load of fuel and ammunition and external racks. I wasn't disputing Dave's comment - I was giving him the USAF data for operational P-51H - not NAA data.

The question/doubt raised was whether the P-51H was capable of 487mph and the answer is 'yes' just by removing the fuel tank/bomb racks. There were P-51H racers that achieved nearly 500 mph at SL - but all stripped and light.

The SL speed is 413mph with full load of ammo and internal fuel and an initial climb rate at SL of 5480 fpm with full internal load out.

I could not determine if this data was with or without racks

a 1946 test give only a 451 mph at 9544 pounds, P-51H Performance Test

This is definitely with racks.

Max airspeed is difficult to nail down. Variations in manufacturing, maintenance, preparation, instrumentation, etc. all contribute to error. If the error is only + 1%, at these speeds you are looking at a 10 mph swing.

 

[davparlr]

I am extremely hungry with your post . I will be polite in respect of the others readers. I dont care now about D9 ,i disagree with your comments so do the laws of physice but i dont care wright now.
How do you dare to claim that the crime of Dresden shortened the war even by a second?????????????????????
The burning of up to 500000 people , mostly refugees from Silesia , the strafing of fire brigades and ambulances , in a city of no heavy war industry was not an obvious autrocity? And the rail station was undamaged! Why? Because was comitted by alleis? The starvation to death of thousands german prisoners during the last months and the immediate after months of the war wasnt an autrocity? The forcing of prisoners to clear mine fields with bear hands ,the forced labor for years after the war ,was because" war is barbaric, what can we do?" Your Jabos roaring without resistance across germany strafing and bombing villages, cottages, farms , villagers , hospitals, cows ,sheeps, dogs were"" in the heat of the batlle" .B17s after destroying all big cities attacked 10000-20000 thousand population small towns that had not produced not one bullet, "in the heat of the battle"
If is justifiable to machine gun the enemy even when knocked out why was captain Eck , the only U boat commander known to have killed merchant survivors,was executed? And the commander of Wahoo ,the top American Ace who many times machined gunned survivors ,is a hero . Pt boats ,aircrafts, submarines machined gunned survivors, many times under orders, killed japanese at sea. Have you heard of the "LACONIA incident"?With that logic why gestapo executings of prisoners trying to escape was a crime , if they succeded they would fight germans Again (dont get me wrong ,of course i consider it a crime) .
What makes me mad is the diferent criteria of judging things. Crime is a crime, no matter who commeted it. Germany unfortunately along USSR and japan did the gratest Number .And recoghises it. And has paid the price. With the pogroms of populations of her eastern provinces , with the extreme rate of death of her new born children for years after the war due to bad feeding and lack of drugs, . Still she is most responsible
But everyone must admit his errors .Otherwise repeats them in future wars.
Davparir , now i am sitting in a safe chair. Tommorow morning my chair will not be safe at all.
I am sorry if insulted all americans , my problem is with those few that have different criteria of judjing things . For the few thousands who made bad things there is the rest of America who helped all Europe to recover

Sorry I made you so hungry. You must have missed my two introductory sentences. I will repeat them.

Trying to civilize war fighting is a mostly useless enterprise. Brutality occurs and to criticize one side or the other is usually a hypocritical effort by those who were not in the situation.

 

[Vincenzo]

the NAA calculation at 471 mph it's w/o racks, and at high quote and speed (relative) the loss 20 mph maybe normal

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am extremely hungry with your post . I will be polite in respect of the others readers. I dont care now about D9 ,i disagree with your comments so do the laws of physice but i dont care wright now.
How do you dare to claim that the crime of Dresden shortened the war even by a second?????????????????????
The burning of up to 500000 people , mostly refugees from Silesia , the strafing of fire brigades and ambulances , in a city of no heavy war industry was not an obvious autrocity? And the rail station was undamaged! Why? Because was comitted by alleis? The starvation to death of thousands german prisoners during the last months and the immediate after months of the war wasnt an autrocity? The forcing of prisoners to clear mine fields with bear hands ,the forced labor for years after the war ,was because" war is barbaric, what can we do?" Your Jabos roaring without resistance across germany strafing and bombing villages, cottages, farms , villagers , hospitals, cows ,sheeps, dogs were"" in the heat of the batlle" .B17s after destroying all big cities attacked 10000-20000 thousand population small towns that had not produced not one bullet, "in the heat of the battle"
If is justifiable to machine gun the enemy even when knocked out why was captain Eck , the only U boat commander known to have killed merchant survivors,was executed? And the commander of Wahoo ,the top American Ace who many times machined gunned survivors ,is a hero . Pt boats ,aircrafts, submarines machined gunned survivors, many times under orders, killed japanese at sea. Have you heard of the "LACONIA incident"?With that logic why gestapo executings of prisoners trying to escape was a crime , if they succeded they would fight germans Again (dont get me wrong ,of course i consider it a crime) .
What makes me mad is the diferent criteria of judging things. Crime is a crime, no matter who commeted it. Germany unfortunately along USSR and japan did the gratest Number .And recoghises it. And has paid the price. With the pogroms of populations of her eastern provinces , with the extreme rate of death of her new born children for years after the war due to bad feeding and lack of drugs, . Still she is most responsible
But everyone must admit his errors .Otherwise repeats them in future wars.
Davparir , now i am sitting in a safe chair. Tommorow morning my chair will not be safe at all.
I am sorry if insulted all americans , my problem is with those few that have different criteria of judjing things . For the few thousands who made bad things there is the rest of America who helped all Europe to recover

Jim - please stay on topic and do not politicize your point - this thread and board is about aircraft. If you want to talk war actrocites and the horrors of war, take it to a political forum...

 

[jim]

I read your very interesting pdf about P51h .I saved it already in my hard disk .However I have a question to ask you. IN the "Mission and Discription" sector it mentions: The structural strength was increased 10% over its predessor" .In one of your earlier posts you told me that -H was designed with 1/2 G ultimate limit lower than -D . Also -D empty weight is 7641 lb . -H empty weight is 7198 lb.
Could you explain ? They managed to strengthened the airframe 10% and at the same time reduce its weight nearly 450 lb? What am i missing? Thank you

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wow this thread is so far off topic now. Congrats gentleman, it was a good read and good thread for a while. I thought we might all learn something here.

Now get back on topic!

 

[davparlr]

I read your very interesting pdf about P51h .I saved it already in my hard disk .However I have a question to ask you. IN the "Mission and Discription" sector it mentions: The structural strength was increased 10% over its predessor" .In one of your earlier posts you told me that -H was designed with 1/2 G ultimate limit lower than -D . Also -D empty weight is 7641 lb . -H empty weight is 7198 lb.
Could you explain ? They managed to strengthened the airframe 10% and at the same time reduce its weight nearly 450 lb? What am i missing? Thank you

Yes, I saw that also, and it confused me. It is possible to increase strength and reduce weight by better structual engineering.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

flyboy,how well are you fluent in german? wandering minds would like to know. give jim a break! i vote to have you replaced as a moderator.

And I vote to label you "idiot of the year." Oh wait, that already happened and you're banned too! Geez, who says the mentally diminished can't achieve great things!

 

[drgondog]

I read your very interesting pdf about P51h .I saved it already in my hard disk .However I have a question to ask you. IN the "Mission and Discription" sector it mentions: The structural strength was increased 10% over its predessor" .In one of your earlier posts you told me that -H was designed with 1/2 G ultimate limit lower than -D . Also -D empty weight is 7641 lb . -H empty weight is 7198 lb.
Could you explain ? They managed to strengthened the airframe 10% and at the same time reduce its weight nearly 450 lb? What am i missing? Thank you

I have examined the NAA plans, as well as flight test data - all in the 60's. I am CERTAIN that the P-51H was designed to 11.5 g Ultimate @ 8000 gross weight and that the P-51B/C/D/K was designed at 12g Ultimate (not yield) @ 8000 pounds gross weight.

Disregard the empty weight and remember the 8000 pounds as the basis for the design calcs.

The Mustang design team led by Schmeud worked with the Supermarine team to re-design the internal structure to take out the "D" weight while retaining nearly the same structural integrity. The P-51H also had a taller tail and 13" longer fuselage aft of the internal fuselage tank... (and completely re-designed with very, very few common parts.)

Because the D grew nearly 900 pounds, the P-51H was actually at or slightly above the D for most mission profiles when a similar amount of fuel had been burned away.

You missed 'nothing'..I believe the handbook to be in 'error' or failed to put it in the context that 8000 pounds for a P-51H was in fact quite a bit less than a similarly 'loaded' P-51D... and still have the same battle capability.

The standard US airframe design parameters for high performance a/c was +/- 8g (ip), 3g (negative) for YIELD (in the elastic range) and a 1.5 'x' load factor for ultimate in the worst case design condition... (like a high speed dive with rudder input or a high g pullout with rudder input)

I am trying to get a copy of both the NAA flight tests of February 1945, and the AMC tests of December 1946. The 11-46 calculations were made without a fully functioning Simmonds Boost control but the 487mph figure was extracted a.) by calculation w/o external rack (bomb/drop tank) and validated by the NAA flight test.

The test of the 51H at Wright Paterson as summarized by the 10-46 report had some substandard speeds and also had a reference to peak power anomalies from the bench tests of the engine - as well as variations in high blower critical altitudes... it also was not delivered with the Simmonds boost control but candidly I'm not sure what difference that should make relative to level speed runs - would make a difference on climb tests though.

 

[drgondog]

And I vote to label you "idiot of the year." Oh wait, that already happened and you're banned too! Geez, who says the mentally diminished can't achieve great things!

I wondered how long he was gonna last - but I had to remember my first 'airdrop' and our wonderful discussion on Chuck Yeager <grin>.. you and Dan were so wonderfully tolerant of my 'misconceptions'..

He still remains a 'friend' but I am not blinded to his personality charms.

Lol

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I wondered how long he was gonna last - but I had to remember my first 'airdrop' and our wonderful discussion on Chuck Yeager <grin>.. you and Dan were so wonderfully tolerant of my 'misconceptions'..

He still remains a 'friend' but I am not blinded to his personality charms.

Lol

LOL! Bill we know each other too well!

 

[drgondog]

Yes, I saw that also, and it confused me. It is possible to increase strength and reduce weight by better structual engineering.

Dave - as I noted to Jim, I know what the design philosopy was on both the D and the H as I posted to Jim.

Simply I believe the handbook reference is in error... but I do believe the two airframes are EQUIVALENT across the board as long as the load out of fuel and ammo are the same - simply because the H would be 400 pounds lighter across the load profile

The simple math would look like this..

at 8000 pounds at 12G, the B and D wing would be designed to fail with 96,000 pounds applied to each wing

at 8000 pounds at 11.5G the H wing would fail at 92,000 pounds

at 8400 pounds the D wing still fails at 96000 pounds - but the 'allowable G' at that weight is 96,000/8400 = 11.42 G Ultimate ------> same as the P-51H with same loadout but lower gross weight at 8000 pounds.

The difference in real life is negligible but I don't believe the P-51H was 10% 'stronger'.

Part of stripping the weight was better design (straight leading edge/no strake, smaller main gear, etc), and pasrt was resizing caps and stringers after several years of failure history to better balance the structural integrity... so they a.) took out some unneccesary redundancy and b.) lowered the design limit and design ultimate accordingly based on reduced weights.