Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
JUg, cheeky devil, isn't he?
Georgia and Russia at war.
- Thread starter rochie
- Start date
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Matt308
Glock Perfection
I don't agree with that syscom. I don't think the US has been antagonizing Russia. The US agreed to share in the technology and administration of the missile defense site. In fact, we offered to let Russia manage the bloody radar with their equipment and monitor the overall activity.
Other than our leasing military bases for our war on fanatical Islam, the expansion is not a US expansion. What you are referring to with respect to old soviet satellite nations is NATO endeavor. NATO is a common defence network that is highly prized for its ability and efficiency compared with Russia and past Warsaw Pact capabilities. Sovereign nations have a right to choose. They have not been forced to join NATO either via the gun, economically nor socially. Rather, joining the most efficient defence organization is an organic decision that any sane country would want to pursue. It is a common defence mechanism to surround yourself with powerful friendlies.
Russia is neither.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
That's okay. Another lying politicial deserves the microscope. They all do.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
I do get the feeling there is a bigger picture here and the Russians are playing a far bigger game.
South Ossetia is just the reason for a bit of power projection to show that the big dog is alive and barking.
Most of Europes natural gas comes from Russia and energy is a better weapon than any MiG. So Europe will suck it up where the Russians are involved.
South Ossetia is just the reason for a bit of power projection to show that the big dog is alive and barking.
Most of Europes natural gas comes from Russia and energy is a better weapon than any MiG. So Europe will suck it up where the Russians are involved.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
You are right Basket. Oil has come down almost 33% lately per barrel and that hits right home to Russia, which is their really only true commodity that fuels their economy. A little chaos is necessary to keep those barrels running up.
While the argument has been made that Georgia is not an oil oasis, the ability to destablize the region associate with Russia's state supported Gazprom's endeavors has huge implications to the world economy. With the exception of British Petroleum, Russia has assumed all state ownership of oil/gas exploration. This is similarly true for Iran. This is similarly true for Venezuela. This is similarly true for Saudi Arabia.
Once the ability to find and exploit gas is gone when western technology vacates the area, this will create a crisis.
While the argument has been made that Georgia is not an oil oasis, the ability to destablize the region associate with Russia's state supported Gazprom's endeavors has huge implications to the world economy. With the exception of British Petroleum, Russia has assumed all state ownership of oil/gas exploration. This is similarly true for Iran. This is similarly true for Venezuela. This is similarly true for Saudi Arabia.
Once the ability to find and exploit gas is gone when western technology vacates the area, this will create a crisis.
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
i disagree with you for 2 reasons:
1 - 70% of south ossetians are russian citzens and desire that south ossetia becomes part of russia.
2 - the georgia´s army striked the region first.
3 - what american or britons or any other would do if in another country there been killed 1000 of their citzens ? war ! the logical choice !
i think the russia is in their right to defend the south ossetians that are also russian citzens. and georgia is wrong because, like have been posted here before: "Of course it would have been better had they learned from Serbia and not tried to used force to keep them in the nation".
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Does your position hold true if it were the Kayapo of Brazil wanting independence?
This situation is very similar to Serbia-Kosovo affairs.
In early 90th, ethnic cleansings left several thousands dead and hundreds of thousands ossetian refugees fled to Russia. To stop the massacre Russia deployed a peacekeeping contingent into the region. And it was peace for another 16 years or so (very fragile though) until August 8th 2008 when Georgia launched a massive artillery and rocket bombardment of the capital city of South Ossetia killing 1400 people within several hours while the rest of the World was watching the Opening of The Olympic Games.
Now it will be more like a dream for Georgia to return this breakaway province back to Georgia without physical extermination of all its ossetian population. It would be the same task as, say, returning Kosovo to Serbia now.
The things are even more complex considering that fact that many of the early 90th ossetian refugees got russian citizenship while being in refuge but later decided to return to their homes in South Ossetia hoping for a prolonged peace. So, Russia, I guess, has more business in the region, where its citizens being slaughtered, then anyone else.
What I dont understand is why it took them so long (more then 10 hours) to retaliate, allowing so many civilians being killed in the first hours of Georgia's attak. They defenetely been cought by surprise.
And why the russians are so shy in their airstrikes? Didnt they learn those lessons given by NATO dealing with Belgrad in mid 90th? First, destroing all bridges, power station, airfields, military bases and other infrastructure all at once.
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
yes i do matt, we have 8 million km square here, we can give a good piece of land for them if they really wants. i would support that, if all of them are really wanting be independent. not 2 or 3 villages but the whole kayapos.
its quite the same way acre. acre in 19 century was part of bolivia but most part of the inhabitans was brazilians, their desire was to acre be part of brazil. that generated the "acre´s issue", then in in 1903, with the treaty of petropolis, brazil peacefully integrated acre in exchane of 2 million english pounds.
bolivians says the president of bolivia exchanged acre by a horse, thats not true...
or also is quite the same independence of uruguay, since that land was part of the brazilian empire in 19 century then uruguayans fought for their independence and they made it. was very fair they became a independent country since they dont wanna be part of brazil.
os same way americans and brazilians would desire be independent of their european metropolis... well you get it i know... the topic is about georgia and my trip just goes too far !
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
Well until now Russia financially has lost more than gained in this war. RTS and MMVB index (Russian "Dow Jones" index) has fell to 10 % and is on the two years low by now. The conflict wont last much long - so there's no potential for the oil prices to skyrocket.
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
which citizenship have the people of Kayapo? Are they cut off economically and politically from Brazil like Ossetia and Abkhazia from Georgia? Do they have a semi-autonomy?
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
quite frankly speaking guys I do believe the Georgian assault on Ossetia was a solely Georgian initiative without much consulting the USA. Looks like American officials were caught unaware by Georgia's actions. Of course now they're trying to save a face and ask Russia to stop the bombing but it looks like they are as angry with Georgian actions as many other countries.
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
ramirezzz:
kayapos are a indian nation of brazil, like xanvantes, tupis, guaranis, yanomamis, tucanos... etc. with their own language and their own culture. they are brazilians citzens, they also speak portuguese and they have their lands to fishing, hunting and lives. but in a hypotetical situation, if they wants be independent of brazil, they would have all the right to do so. if all of them want that. not just some chiefs because had a fight with funai or because some obscure n.g.o. put that idea on their minds for obscure interests.
interesting article in portuguese about kayapos issue:
Amazonia.org.br
kayapos are a indian nation of brazil, like xanvantes, tupis, guaranis, yanomamis, tucanos... etc. with their own language and their own culture. they are brazilians citzens, they also speak portuguese and they have their lands to fishing, hunting and lives. but in a hypotetical situation, if they wants be independent of brazil, they would have all the right to do so. if all of them want that. not just some chiefs because had a fight with funai or because some obscure n.g.o. put that idea on their minds for obscure interests.
interesting article in portuguese about kayapos issue:
Amazonia.org.br
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
i think georgia wanted that usa and nato could help them by some form, thats why they send troops for iraq and thats why they are so close of european union.
the president of georgia may tought: - now i have big friends, russia wouldnt intervene here if we try to drive south ossetians out to north ossetia and take back south ossetia.
but the sad true is that neither usa or nato even far consirered the option of a troops deployment. so georgia is alone now. their only suporters are some baltic republics and poland that complains the russian invasion. but just political support. not military.
is better that situation ends fast and the future of south ossetia would traced in a negotiation table, by both parts, in a peacefull way.
BBC NEWS | Europe | Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia'
"peace", Georgia has pulled out. Not sure what happens next - perhaps the territory will secede to Russia.
"peace", Georgia has pulled out. Not sure what happens next - perhaps the territory will secede to Russia.
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
they hadn't .Either this statement was a mistake or it was a deliberate desinformation. They simply regrouped their forces and and deployed it on other positions in SO.
Ramirezzz
Senior Airman
Russian autorities described the conditions under which the cease-fire talks could begin - withdrawing of Georgian troops to their pre-attack positions (before friday attack) and signing of an non-agression agreement with Ossetians and Abkhazians
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
thats right dimitri, i readed that so, also seems like the soldiers in iraq are about to come back to georgia and they are recruiting many volunteers.
they are regrouping for the next action. but since georgian air force is quite small and is not fully operational and their main airport was destroyed, their comandants may are considering take defensive positions along SO borders.
lets see whats happends...
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