How Rundstedt could've repulsed the Allied invasion in 44

[Erich]

I guess my repetitive statements are probably precluding the original title of the thread.

Had the Ferne ~ Nachtjagd been in ever greater numbers and meaning up to Geschwader strength and more than just 1-2 units but fielded as many Geschwaders as made by day, this Intruder force alone could have changed the air war before the US could of sent their very first B-17's over in late 1942. the fields would have been under the watchful eyes continually, the RAF would never know if it was safe to come out for a bombing of the Reich or taxiing at night or training at night, etc............since the attackers were always present. the threat was there and the idea had worked but stupid minds get in the way of greatness many times, and in this case the nf's were pulled off duty and sent to Afrika

 

[syscom3]

Erich, so what happens when the RAF sends their night intruders and fighters to do the same thing to the Luftwaffe?

I dont think the night fighters and night bombers would have much impact on the 8th and 9th AF's. All they (AAF) would do is dig reventments and disperse the aircraft to a higher degree than they did.

 

[Erich]

I still do not think you chaps are taking into consideration what I am trying to state. If the German intruder program would of stepped up to the plate and continued the harrassment full swing the US bomber program never would of happened and the RAF night program would of been further delayed, RAF intruders and nfs would not have gotten off the ground as the Luftw wouild of pulverized anything on the ground - a/c, any euipment, buildings of any sort.

it all would of ceased to exist. My reasoning as you can see is well beofre the reality of Normandie

 

[Hunter368]

I still do not think you chaps are taking into consideration what I am trying to state. If the German intruder program would of stepped up to the plate and continued the harrassment full swing the US bomber program never would of happened and the RAF night program would of been further delayed, RAF intruders and nfs would not have gotten off the ground as the Luftw wouild of pulverized anything on the ground - a/c, any euipment, buildings of any sort.

it all would of ceased to exist. My reasoning as you can see is well beofre the reality of Normandie

Like you admited before what you talk about is a BIG if but ok. I would say if they did that the Allies would of done exactly the same thing. They could of and would of put up alot of nf of their own. Both over their own bases, UK and over German airbases. They would of also inmproved the ackack and radar and spotlights. I still am not convinced it would of changed much. It just would changed how it happened alittle but the outcome would not of changed I think.

 

[evangilder]

The US did not have any dedicated night fighters until the P-61 came out. They could have fitted other fighters for it, I suppose, but the Luftwaffe could have made a heck of a dent in the 8th AF if they had started the NF and night strike missions early on.

 

[Hunter368]

The US did not have any dedicated night fighters until the P-61 came out. They could have fitted other fighters for it, I suppose, but the Luftwaffe could have made a heck of a dent in the 8th AF if they had started the NF and night strike missions early on.

True like I said it would of altered the course alittle but USA ingenuity and massive production power would of fixed that fast. USA just didn't see a great need for a nf at that time, why should they have right? They were operating during the day not night. If German would of started using nf more and more over UK hitting the 8th you think they would of taken that laying down, lol no way. We would of seen the P-61 faster and seen planes that they had already there fitted to become nf to fill the gap. USA ingenuity at work, never say never. We would of seen planes fitted into nf role that we never saw for real. To think that German could of adapted and changed the way they fought the war and then to say that the allies would or could of not also is mmmmmm lets just say does not make sense. As the allies proved many times they had better supply, better industry, and many more pilots. German would of started losing pilots over UK which would of made their other problems happen even faster. Don't forget Germany had to already had to start training bomber pilots to become fighter pilots to fill their gaps in trained pilots for home defence, this would of made it happen even faster. While i like Eric idea in theory, it would of changed things alittle yes, but not stopped the course of the war over all.

 

[evangilder]

If you look at the historical perspective, the early 8th AF was struggling. Without fighter escorts, they were taking pretty heavy losses. If the Germans had aggressively attacked the early 8th AF, it could have caused a major strategy shift. The operrational losses alone almost caused the 8th to stop operations altogether. If they had been aggressively attacked at the same time, that might have been enough to change the whole air war in Europe.

Again, it's kind of moot as it did not happen, but I believe that had the Luftwaffe had a better commander than fatso, they could have been used more effectively.

 

[Erich]

As Eric said Fatty was the prime directive, what he said ruled. You cannot have an 8th or 9th AF flying over the contintient to pop Germany if you do not have a functional base to work from. this IS EXACTLY my point with the German intruders. Germany was the first to put these in effect. had they come to full fruition the night and even the day air war would of changed. How ? no one knows. It is one of the aspects of the air war that there is so little written about.

getting back to the Normandie invasion and that what if, sure we clearly again see the overwhelmingness of the US air armada but had in 1941 things changed with my feelings on night intruders, then what..... ? ok lets not go there as it has been hashed

 

[Hunter368]

Ok

 

[Erich]

Intruders over Britain by Simon Parry. Not an easy book to find.

probably the only real book in print covering the ver early war exploits of the German nf intruders and the problems the RAF had with them.........a scarey proposition it was for anything in the future.

I had the pleasure of interviewing by letter one NJG 2 member Herbert Thomas who as the result of a severe wounding and crashing of the Ju 88C he was in kept him out of the rest of the war. His feelings were just as I stated, If the continuation had been complete by all the existing NJG's then the course of the air would have changed .............

 

[syscom3]

In the end, there really was nothing the Germans could have done to stop the Normandy invasion. They could have complicated things but not stop it. As long as the allies held naval and air superiority, the battle for Normandy was never in doubt.

 

[evangilder]

Agreed, the only real difference would have been the cost in lives.

 

[Hunter368]

very true

 

[syscom3]

Erich, any information you have, even if its a "what if" or slightly off topic, please post it. It gets us to think about things too.

 

[Erich]

I will say it again had the nf performed the Ferne-nacht there would have been no air superiority over Normandie and Naval ? what protection could the Allies have come up without airfields to fly from ?

I'm getting carried away here so I will now stop.............maybe

 

[Hunter368]

I will say it again had the nf performed the Ferne-nacht there would have been no air superiority over Normandie and Naval ? what protection could the Allies have come up without airfields to fly from ?

I'm getting carried away here so I will now stop.............maybe

They would of had to come up with a viable nf force, between the UK and USA I think they would of been able to modify current planes as a stop gap and then developed other models faster as the need for them heightened. If we are playing the big what if game here Eric do you agree that is also possible. Germany could not match plane for plane or even pilot for pilot with UK USA. Germany would had the lead for a while until the allies were able to catch up and over take them. In 41-42-43 German would have had the upper hand, but as of 44-45 German could not shot down enough UK USA Russian planes on all fronts to halt the waves of planes. German plane production was being massively out produced at this time.

 

[syscom3]

The only flaw I see in your reasoning is the RAF and AAF wouldnt retaliate in kind. If the Luftwaffe night attacks were serious, you would see a lot more RAF night time counter measures. I would venture to say the RAF would have their own night intruders over the German airfields.

Airfields were always difficult to knock out, and the Luftwaffe could not seriously impede operations. Just too many airfields too take care of.

I will grant you that the night intruders could have effected the RAF strategy to certein degree by forcing them to be far more cautious in coming in to land. But to say they could have any effect on daytime operations is stretching it a bit. The AAF airfields would have been laid out with more revetments, greater aircraft dispersal and under cover and probably more engineer units to fill in bomb craters.

Just as you said in other threads how the sturm fighters could devestate the B17 and B24's "heavy bombers" with their cannons, the P47's with their 8 .50's would have an easier time against the Luftwaffe "medium bombers".

 

[Erich]

it is questionable I would agree, but the central and southern airfields where the RAF/US were bases would of have been blasted early on from 41-43, the US could not take part with the fighters and bombers it had unless it tried to formaulte plans with Ireland and the northern section of England. would of the bombers and fighters had the fuel reserves to make a two way trip/over to Germany and then back in early 43. probably not. the same results for the RAF, implanting northern fields or could they. the Ju 88C series had plenty of fuel to cover all of England and the environs for the time it was allocated.

any time anyone wants to reverse the scenario and get us back on track, but I feel this is all part of the long range: Normandie was conquered via defeating the day time Luftwaffe by overpowering it, and that is because of superior knowledge of the land, airfelds and Luftwaffe strengths that was only built up after the Luftw. nf intruder program came to an abrupt standstill.

I do apoligize for hijacking this thread but it got me thinking, the Luftw intruder program has never been seriously looked at, and covered in books so scantily that 90 % of those interested in the air war have never heard of it.

v/r E time for a

 

[syscom3]

I dont see the AAF as being strong enough to influence events untill spring 1943. Untill then, it would be a RAF/Luftwaffe fight.

Remember that throughout the later part of 1942, a good part of the AAF groups were going to North Africa.

From what Ive been able to gather, the real fight for the sky didnt begin untill the 1st quarter of 1944 where the 8th AF was finally able to bring the fight deep into Germany. Up till then, the Luftwaffe would only be able to create a nuisance and not do any lasting damage.

The logistical buildup to the Normandy invasion didnt begin in earnest untill late 1943 so the Luftwaffe would have to be in strength and capable of sustained operations to wreck the ports and depots.

 

[Erich]

sys:

the US bomber initiative almost came to a halt after the disaster at Schweinfurt/Regensburg in summer-fall of 1943. It was going through serious growth periods with an ever present thought of not futhering the heavy bomber campagin during the day even with P-47 escorts. the Luftwaffe was bringing it on the US heavies in ever increasing numbers with terrible casualties on both sides.

I repeat the Luftw. intruder program would of negated a pre Normandie buildup on the English coast and everything would of been a shambles.

It is also of note with the disaster of operation Tiger / April 44, the LST sinkings and damages with loss of US sailors how much emphasis was put on bombing out Cherbourg and Le Harve ports housing S-booten, which when thought out were pretty much inconsquential to overall scope of things. but a huge threat they were in the Allied supreme minds