Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?

parsifal · Aug 12, 2011

The key is whether the convoy was under attack or not. If attack was under way, or considered imminent, the position of the stricken ship was noted and a message passed to a rescue ship or aircraft. But no-one from the convoy would stop for the ship. These orders from the convoy commander, and sometimes individual ships would disobey them, accepting that the convoy would not wait for them. These guys were truly heroes, in every sense..... if there was no attack in progress one of the escorts would usually be detached to pick up survivors.

Readie · Aug 12, 2011

parsifal said:
The key is whether the convoy was under attack or not. If attack was under way, or considered imminent, the position of the stricken ship was noted and a message passed to a rescue ship or aircraft. But no-one from the convoy would stop for the ship. These orders from the convoy commander, and sometimes individual ships would disobey them, accepting that the convoy would not wait for them. These guys were truly heroes, in every sense..... if there was no attack in progress one of the escorts would usually be detached to pick up survivors.

Yes, you are quite right.

It had also taken a long time for the Merchant Marine to get the salutation and recognition they deserve.

Cheers
John

seesul · Aug 12, 2011

Ratsel said:
back to bailing without even getting hit. the more I looked, I can only find a few references to it. So it was not a common practice. I was skeptical about Erichs claim that some B-24 crews bailed at just the sight of a -109.. to my surprise it did happen, not often but it did. So it seems both sides did a 'premature' bail.

If am I not wrong, I read the same in Willi Reschke´s book. Gotta check it out.

stona · Aug 12, 2011

As far as opening parachutes,according to veteran accounts U.S. airmen were told to open the canopy when they "could tell the difference between a horse and a cow on the ground". Sounds awfully risky to me!
This has nothing to do with avoiding being targeted by Luftwaffe pilots but rather avoiding anoxia by opening at high altitude without an emergency oxygen supply.
The rare footage of bomber crews hanging in parachutes that I have seen would indicate that they didn't always follow this advice and I don't blame them.
There is a belief amongst American veterans that Luftwaffe fighter pilots would fly close to their parachutes in an effort to collapse them. There are many such beliefs but it doesn't make them true and there is absolutely no evidence to support this one. I think it is more likely that they were attempting to capture the parachute on film. Interestingly the claims are usually made about Fw190s which did often have a gun camera,something which was much more unusual on the Bf109.
Steve

tyrodtom · Aug 12, 2011

There's no way to know, but the bomber could have already been damaged from another fighter, and seeing another coming to attack might have been the last straw.

And the same can be said for the Luftwaffe pilots who bailed, they might have already had a damaged aircraft, very low on fuel, no ammo. The attacking aircraft can hardly do a damage survey.

FalkeEins · Aug 12, 2011

Ratsel said:
back to bailing without even getting hit. the more I looked, I can only find a few references to it.

..I've only found one reference in the JG 300 history - three Fw 190 pilots, including two aces, bailed out on 02 March 1945 rather than get involved with the 353rd FG..one of them was formation leader Rudi Zwesken who had just downed two B-17s and had no ammo left...

stona · Aug 12, 2011

I've found a few British encounter reports that support the U.S. ones. NOT pilots bailing out before the engagement started but bailing out as soon as they were fired at. Always difficult to assess. One Tempest pilot claimed he saw only three or four strikes on an enemy aircraft whereupon the pilot jettisoned his canopy and jumped. Of course one lucky round can cripple an aircraft.
Anyway the original question was whether this was sanctioned which it was not,neither was it widespread.
Steve

jayastout · Aug 12, 2011

In doing my research--reviewing hundreds of encounter reports from just a single fighter group--I was surprised at how many instances I found. I would have expected one or two, but offhand, I'd say I've found at least a dozen, if not more. This is what prompted me to make the original post.

stona · Aug 12, 2011

jayastout said:
I'd say I've found at least a dozen, if not more. This is what prompted me to make the original post.

I would estimate I've seen a similar number after trawling through both U.S and British reports but it hardly makes it common place. I'm more surprised by the number of parachutes that fail to open after a pilot is seen to abandon his aircraft.
Steve

Nikademus · Aug 15, 2011

Perhaps this exerpt and quote says it all....

Three missions later, McCrary interviewed him. [Mark Mathis....bombadier...brother of Medal of Honor recipient Jack Mathis...KIA] A lot of fliers were saying that they found it hard to hate the Germans, that they'd rather be getting revenge [my italics] against the Japanese. What did he think about that?

"You don't start hating till you been hurt," Mark said. "Me, well, I've been hurt. So I hate the Germans. I wish we bombed their cities instead of just their factories."

-Masters of the Air. (re: early March 1943 raids)

I'd like to assume that the bulk of fighting men treated war as a job needing to get done...but its also true that for many, war took on a more personal angle. The need for Revenge was one of the reasons why the Pacific war was so bloody. Hate is a part of war too. I seem to recall that at times Allied CO's complained that there was a distinct "Lack" of hate in the ground pounders...that it prevented them from being proper killers. And you have to kill to get the job done.

stona · Aug 15, 2011

Nikademus said:
" I wish we bombed their cities instead of just their factories."

Well we certainly did that for him.

Steve

drgondog · Aug 15, 2011

Nikademus said:
Perhaps this exerpt and quote says it all....

Three missions later, McCrary interviewed him. [Mark Mathis....bombadier...brother of Medal of Honor recipient Jack Mathis...KIA] A lot of fliers were saying that they found it hard to hate the Germans, that they'd rather be getting revenge [my italics] against the Japanese. What did he think about that?

"You don't start hating till you been hurt," Mark said. "Me, well, I've been hurt. So I hate the Germans. I wish we bombed their cities instead of just their factories."

-Masters of the Air. (re: early March 1943 raids)

You sure that wasn't "First of the Many", by Tex McCrary, Simon and Schuster?
I think brother Jack was killed by flak shrapnel and while dying he crawled back to his sight as lead bombadier before he passed away - Vegesack?

I'd like to assume that the bulk of fighting men treated war as a job needing to get done...but its also true that for many, war took on a more personal angle. The need for Revenge was one of the reasons why the Pacific war was so bloody. Hate is a part of war too. I seem to recall that at times Allied CO's complained that there was a distinct "Lack" of hate in the ground pounders...that it prevented them from being proper killers. And you have to kill to get the job done.

I can tell you without fear of contradiction that both Blakeslee and Zemke despised Germany/Germans and I have zero doubt there were many Germans that felt the same way about US, perhaps modified only after the war.

On the other anecdote about bomber crews bailing out at the sight of an enemy fighter - I suspect that in most cases the bomber was already severly crippled and nearly defenseless.. but who knows on an indivual basis?

Erich · Aug 16, 2011

don't forget the numerous Allied reports of engaging LW S/E's still with Belly tanks on, though usual to forget they were still attached a terrible direct order to keep them on to save precious fuel order by non other than the Fat one himself while engaging US heavy bombers and even in fighter vs fighter combat............insane !

jayastout · Aug 17, 2011

Erich said:
don't forget the numerous Allied reports of engaging LW S/E's still with Belly tanks on, though usual to forget they were still attached a terrible direct order to keep them on to save precious fuel order by non other than the Fat one himself while engaging US heavy bombers and even in fighter vs fighter combat............insane !

Yes, I do wonder at that. I would suspect that in many instances the Luftwaffe fliers were simply ambushed (most successful aerial victories on every side were achieved this way) and either didn't know they were being shot at, or hadn't yet had time to collect their wits and shuck the tanks. I'm sure it happened to Allied pilots as well.

I am additionally curious as to whether or not any German pilots were actually punished for releasing their belly tanks, and what that punishment was. The order itself was unwise but it would have been additionally unwise to take a trained pilot out of service (if that was the punishment).

stona · Aug 17, 2011

Erich said:
don't forget the numerous Allied reports of engaging LW S/E's still with Belly tanks on, though usual to forget they were still attached a terrible direct order to keep them on to save precious fuel order by non other than the Fat one himself while engaging US heavy bombers and even in fighter vs fighter combat............insane !

Erich I've noticed many encounters in which allied pilots comment on their Luftwaffe opponents still carrying drop tanks. I was unaware that they were ordered to retain them.
I have seen in POW debriefings that during defence of the Reich operations a Geschwader only carried drop tanks on the first mission of the day as they attempted to re-fuel and re-arm the entire wing in less than half an hour for subsequent operations. The implication is that they must have jettisoned them eventually,even if only when empty.
Cheers
Steve

TheMustangRider · Aug 17, 2011

I wonder if such possible sanctions which sound completely absurd might have caused resentment and mutiny among fatigued and disillusioned German flyers.
In my perspective, many German fighter pilots having endured the brutality of the air war for a prolonged period of time while being aware that Germany is on the brink of collapse, might have refused to fly when given irrational orders like not engaging enemy fighter pilots even if they become a target for them and never releasing their external fuel tanks if they were not empty even if enemy fighter pilots were in the immediate area as well; and in the face of a court martial, might have contemplated the possibility of taking their planes and deserting behind enemy lines.
I am certain that the commitment to defend their fatherland until the end overcame such options for the majority of them but I do not discard the possibility that some might have taken seriously the option of mutiny or desertion in the face of irrational and absurd orders.

Erich · Aug 17, 2011

it was a written order from the LW higher ups in the spring of 44 but never carried out officially, stated in breifings but up to the individual pilot(s) to remain or drop. with the order from Staffel leaders during a rear attack on US bombers the order Zusätztanks ab ! was given now if the pilot was so focused on selecting his quarry then a person could understand the reasoning why the tank was still in place. when in travelling mode by staffel and rarely a whole Geschwader, forming up and then assaulted by Mustangs you can see the reason only in the evident of being hit why the fuel tank was not dropped and even so the inexperienced pilot was too much in his zone trying to weave and climb and overhaul his 109/Fw to be aware he still had an extra load of un-necessary weight still attached, and by the spring of 45 as the Reich had dwindled in size the use of extra drop tank's was nullified.

Messy1 · Aug 17, 2011

Erich said:
don't forget the numerous Allied reports of engaging LW S/E's still with Belly tanks on, though usual to forget they were still attached a terrible direct order to keep them on to save precious fuel order by non other than the Fat one himself while engaging US heavy bombers and even in fighter vs fighter combat............insane !

That is insane. Wonder what a order like that would do to morale? Wonder if it left the pilot feeling he was not as valuable as gallons of aviation fuel? Terrible policy.

Erich · Aug 17, 2011

add to the conservation idea of saving fuels but also being able to randomly - ha ha, fly over the Reich for an extended period of time with extra onboard to attack US bombers for miles and miles.

tyrodtom · Aug 17, 2011

TheMustangRider said:
I wonder if such possible sanctions which sound completely absurd might have caused resentment and mutiny among fatigued and disillusioned German flyers.
In my perspective, many German fighter pilots having endured the brutality of the air war for a prolonged period of time while being aware that Germany is on the brink of collapse, might have refused to fly when given irrational orders like not engaging enemy fighter pilots even if they become a target for them and never releasing their external fuel tanks if they were not empty even if enemy fighter pilots were in the immediate area as well; and in the face of a court martial, might have contemplated the possibility of taking their planes and deserting behind enemy lines.
I am certain that the commitment to defend their fatherland until the end overcame such options for the majority of them but I do not discard the possibility that some might have taken seriously the option of mutiny or desertion in the face of irrational and absurd orders.

The Germans armed forces executed at least 11,000 of it's own men for, desertion, combat refusal, dereliction of duty, etc. during WW2. I've seen some figures that put that almost triple. These executions were not hidden, everone knew what the consequences could be.

A little off topic, if you want a real shocker look at the Russian numbers for the same offense.

Luftwaffe Pilots - Sanctioned to Bail Out?

Colonel

Chief Master Sergeant

Senior Master Sergeant

Major

Senior Master Sergeant

Senior Airman

Major

Airman

Major

Senior Airman

Major

Major

the old Sage

Airman

Major

Senior Airman

the old Sage

Master Sergeant

the old Sage

Senior Master Sergeant

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