Udet said:
Can you please list names and sources because you allways say you have talked to people, but never list names and sources.
PISTON ENGINE AIRCRAFT JET KILLS
- Thread starter FLYBOYJ
- Start date
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Can you please list names and sources because you allways say you have talked to people, but never list names and sources.
Erich
the old Sage
there were crap pilots from all nations with a bad attitude during the war and after the war. Some have higher egos than others and should be ignored.
Geez Yaeger is his own man just like Günther Rall whom I was not impressed with. Urban Drew was another that thought he was hot sh**, and yet I know several other P-51 aces that are the kindest guys around giving of themselves and believe it or not still seeking the truth of what really happend during the war with cases of claims of Me 262's; the same as several other notable Luftwaffe vets that I have come to know.
bottom line the jets just the same as their Kameraden in the prop jobs 109/190's did their job as best they could, some with success others like my cousin a bare 1-2 missions and then killed in action. The US flyers knew perfectly well they had the upper hand with equipment and the numbers game and they pushed the envelope as much as was possible in the destruction of the Luftwaffe day fighter force
Geez Yaeger is his own man just like Günther Rall whom I was not impressed with. Urban Drew was another that thought he was hot sh**, and yet I know several other P-51 aces that are the kindest guys around giving of themselves and believe it or not still seeking the truth of what really happend during the war with cases of claims of Me 262's; the same as several other notable Luftwaffe vets that I have come to know.
bottom line the jets just the same as their Kameraden in the prop jobs 109/190's did their job as best they could, some with success others like my cousin a bare 1-2 missions and then killed in action. The US flyers knew perfectly well they had the upper hand with equipment and the numbers game and they pushed the envelope as much as was possible in the destruction of the Luftwaffe day fighter force
Exactly Erich.
- Thread starter
- #264
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Bravo Erich! 
Good post Erich!
mr. flyboy, hi
"While it could be said that Yeager is a bit of a major @ss there is no reason to undermine or deny his actual combat record, that's been confirmed and verified by many (on both sides) who didn't even like the man for the same reasons I've given. At the same time I know your feelings about allied pilots and your points about the actual effectiveness of the Luftwaffe when dealing with the RAF and the USAAF, but remember this; many a Luftwaffe experten themselves became experten with regards to the functional requirements of parachutes and egress systems, and those who had the luck or skill to survive the war are still very brave men in my book and it doesn't undermine their skill or courage no matter how many times they found themselves floating helplessly while a sky full of P-51s zoomed past them. Scrutinize the allied airforces of WW2, their over-exaggeration of their victories and those who might blindly glorify them 60 years later but remember the last words spoken by Field Marshal Griem on May 24, 1945 - "but I have no Luftwaffe." And there will never be a denail, debut or doubt of that fact.."
i like the true diplomatic fashion of your comment here, thank you; now, what you are basically saying there is "no matter what you might say, the allies won and the germans you love so much lost."
from what i know flyboy, in the post-war era the airplane kills as claimed by german fighter pilots overcame fierce scrutiny and doubts, and they did remarkably well. the western allies can not claim the same thing. (soviet military air force not included there though, for those guys have lived inside a bubble eversince)
you are correct. it´s very true german field commanders and their soldiers complained about the lack of air cover during the last year of the war, a fact that can be easily detected in most german accounts and war memories published.
that such a thing is correct does not mean the Luftwaffe did not exist flyboy -although there are some exceptions when the luftwaffe provided air support to the wehrmacht like the winter battles in the Ardennes in late 1944-.
to give you an idea the luftwaffe was present, the order of battle for two very important Luftwaffe units in the first week of January, 1945:
stab, I., II., III. and IV./ JG 300 and stab., I. and III./ JG 301 altogether fielded some 300 fighters (with more than 75% operational). only 2 units which were very powerful when 1945 commenced.
the point being, where was the bulk of the jagdwaffe while german troops were fighting most of the times without air support in the last year of the war, especially throughout 1944?
trying to deal with the streams of heavy bombers hitting the reich, and the romanian oil fields in Ploesti -obviously, before the collapse of romania in 1944-.
they opted for the enemy heavy bombers.
that the luftwaffe was fighting a losing -or lost- battle it´s true for that period of the war; but the Luftwaffe was very active, virtually non-stop combat, on a daily basis, many times inflicting horrible losses to the USAAF while taking their own for sure, horrific on some battles.
it showed the limits of the german military though, the enemy was so large and was striking from so many places (8th and 15th air forces) they were simply unable to provide adequate and sufficient air support to their troops.
wmaxt, hi
my answer to your question? i do not know; it´d not surprise me to find out the number of german aces who never had to bale out was high. i do know many of them had to bale out one or many times though. but what´s new about this?
a digression, i do not care about that individual yeager; i was simply told by some of his fellow airmen the man is a liar. a man with such score should not deserve that sort of limelight though. do not intend to heat up with this.
it´s not a competition to see what pilots had to bale out the most wmaxt; rather it´s an attempt to make fun -or even ridicule- the words of a man who simply can not control his tongue.
try to answer this wmaxt: there is a boxing match, udet vs. wmaxt. we get in a ring and the fight begins. you completely kick the living crap out of me. the referee had to stop the match in round 4. udet has both eyes badly bruised, 3 broken ribs, swollen lips, his nose bleeds and a few hours after the combat he urinates blood in his hotel room.
then guess what? next weeks interviews of me are published on the main newspapers where i "ridicule" you as a fighter. i tell the reporter you do not know how to punch, you lack technique, you are a weak fighter....what about that wmaxt?
well, that´s exactly the thing with that pop-star of the usaaf. got beaten, and shot down. people like him should fill out a job application form for a circus. they are fun
now wmaxt, that the man was a liar does not mean he was a bad pilot. you know that very well. he just had some pathological urge to get attention on him.
you know that if some german experte had to bale out 2, 3 or 10 times that does not make him a bad pilot.
also you know there were hundreds and hundreds of experten who remained in combat for 3, 4 or 5 years of non-stop war, many died during the war, many others saw the end of the conflict. that´s intense, many of the guys in here who have served in the armies of their nations could tell better than anyone about what it would be like to remain in war for such a period of time, with little if any rest. (i know you acknowledge this as well)
the same applies for the experten and newer pilots who served in Kommando Nowotny, JV 44 and JG 7, to name some of the units who were equipped with jets.
so keeping that in mind, USAAF fighter pilots (who fought under diametrically opposed conditions -fixed number of missions then go home-) that got shot down by the Luftwaffe do not fare better in this department wmaxt.
cheers
"While it could be said that Yeager is a bit of a major @ss there is no reason to undermine or deny his actual combat record, that's been confirmed and verified by many (on both sides) who didn't even like the man for the same reasons I've given. At the same time I know your feelings about allied pilots and your points about the actual effectiveness of the Luftwaffe when dealing with the RAF and the USAAF, but remember this; many a Luftwaffe experten themselves became experten with regards to the functional requirements of parachutes and egress systems, and those who had the luck or skill to survive the war are still very brave men in my book and it doesn't undermine their skill or courage no matter how many times they found themselves floating helplessly while a sky full of P-51s zoomed past them. Scrutinize the allied airforces of WW2, their over-exaggeration of their victories and those who might blindly glorify them 60 years later but remember the last words spoken by Field Marshal Griem on May 24, 1945 - "but I have no Luftwaffe." And there will never be a denail, debut or doubt of that fact.."
i like the true diplomatic fashion of your comment here, thank you; now, what you are basically saying there is "no matter what you might say, the allies won and the germans you love so much lost."
from what i know flyboy, in the post-war era the airplane kills as claimed by german fighter pilots overcame fierce scrutiny and doubts, and they did remarkably well. the western allies can not claim the same thing. (soviet military air force not included there though, for those guys have lived inside a bubble eversince)
you are correct. it´s very true german field commanders and their soldiers complained about the lack of air cover during the last year of the war, a fact that can be easily detected in most german accounts and war memories published.
that such a thing is correct does not mean the Luftwaffe did not exist flyboy -although there are some exceptions when the luftwaffe provided air support to the wehrmacht like the winter battles in the Ardennes in late 1944-.
to give you an idea the luftwaffe was present, the order of battle for two very important Luftwaffe units in the first week of January, 1945:
stab, I., II., III. and IV./ JG 300 and stab., I. and III./ JG 301 altogether fielded some 300 fighters (with more than 75% operational). only 2 units which were very powerful when 1945 commenced.
the point being, where was the bulk of the jagdwaffe while german troops were fighting most of the times without air support in the last year of the war, especially throughout 1944?
trying to deal with the streams of heavy bombers hitting the reich, and the romanian oil fields in Ploesti -obviously, before the collapse of romania in 1944-.
they opted for the enemy heavy bombers.
that the luftwaffe was fighting a losing -or lost- battle it´s true for that period of the war; but the Luftwaffe was very active, virtually non-stop combat, on a daily basis, many times inflicting horrible losses to the USAAF while taking their own for sure, horrific on some battles.
it showed the limits of the german military though, the enemy was so large and was striking from so many places (8th and 15th air forces) they were simply unable to provide adequate and sufficient air support to their troops.
wmaxt, hi
my answer to your question? i do not know; it´d not surprise me to find out the number of german aces who never had to bale out was high. i do know many of them had to bale out one or many times though. but what´s new about this?
a digression, i do not care about that individual yeager; i was simply told by some of his fellow airmen the man is a liar. a man with such score should not deserve that sort of limelight though. do not intend to heat up with this.
it´s not a competition to see what pilots had to bale out the most wmaxt; rather it´s an attempt to make fun -or even ridicule- the words of a man who simply can not control his tongue.
try to answer this wmaxt: there is a boxing match, udet vs. wmaxt. we get in a ring and the fight begins. you completely kick the living crap out of me. the referee had to stop the match in round 4. udet has both eyes badly bruised, 3 broken ribs, swollen lips, his nose bleeds and a few hours after the combat he urinates blood in his hotel room.
then guess what? next weeks interviews of me are published on the main newspapers where i "ridicule" you as a fighter. i tell the reporter you do not know how to punch, you lack technique, you are a weak fighter....what about that wmaxt?
well, that´s exactly the thing with that pop-star of the usaaf. got beaten, and shot down. people like him should fill out a job application form for a circus. they are fun
now wmaxt, that the man was a liar does not mean he was a bad pilot. you know that very well. he just had some pathological urge to get attention on him.
you know that if some german experte had to bale out 2, 3 or 10 times that does not make him a bad pilot.
also you know there were hundreds and hundreds of experten who remained in combat for 3, 4 or 5 years of non-stop war, many died during the war, many others saw the end of the conflict. that´s intense, many of the guys in here who have served in the armies of their nations could tell better than anyone about what it would be like to remain in war for such a period of time, with little if any rest. (i know you acknowledge this as well)
the same applies for the experten and newer pilots who served in Kommando Nowotny, JV 44 and JG 7, to name some of the units who were equipped with jets.
so keeping that in mind, USAAF fighter pilots (who fought under diametrically opposed conditions -fixed number of missions then go home-) that got shot down by the Luftwaffe do not fare better in this department wmaxt.
cheers
- Thread starter
- #267
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Agree and sympathize with the force the Luftwaffe had to deal with in late 44, early 45...
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Yea, but that fact has been known to the majority of us "Buffs" for many many years.... I've met Yeager before, a couple of times, and the man was a buffoon.... My Grandfather actually got into an argument with him and called him several expletives, including liar....
Mr Yeager could care less about anyones assessment of his accomplishments... His own assessment of himself is all that matters.... He ever denies Welshs' claim to have broken the sound barrier first, even though there were witnesses to the sonic boom he caused....
Back on topic, there were many more -262's destroyed on the ground than in the air... One of the negatives of having a jet fighter with short legs is that it has to be close to the "front".... I always wondered why German engineers couldnt develope a drop tank for the -262.... Could have saved a few lives and alot of aircraft....
Maybe.........
I went through and read this entire thread again, and there is some great info, but trying to put in chronological order is a very daunting task...
Mr Yeager could care less about anyones assessment of his accomplishments... His own assessment of himself is all that matters.... He ever denies Welshs' claim to have broken the sound barrier first, even though there were witnesses to the sonic boom he caused....
Back on topic, there were many more -262's destroyed on the ground than in the air... One of the negatives of having a jet fighter with short legs is that it has to be close to the "front".... I always wondered why German engineers couldnt develope a drop tank for the -262.... Could have saved a few lives and alot of aircraft....
Maybe.........
I went through and read this entire thread again, and there is some great info, but trying to put in chronological order is a very daunting task...
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
With the numbers in mind, there is a good probability that more Me-262 were lost to accidents than to enemy actions. However, this goes to most ww2 fighter A/C.
Les I am not sure but I think there were some in development for the 262. Im not sure on this though, maybe Erich has more info on it.
Erich
the old Sage
drop tanks were used by the NF unit 10./NJG 11. As the KG (J) 51 and 54 boys plus JG 7 did not fly far from home there was no reason to carry the extra weight considering that it was most likely they would meet up with Stangs sometime during the days operation
Thought so. I remember seeing pics somewhere of Me-262s with droptanks.
Erich
the old Sage
two seaters and boy did they slow those jets down. later in 45 had it been so the fuel tanks would of been internalized or so on the drawing board
Henk
Master Sergeant
Yep, they slowed them down right. Here are some pics of the thread I opened on the Me-262s a while back.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-262-variants-3228.html
I did mostly on the Me-262 at the Johannesburg Military Museum South Africa.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-262-variants-3228.html
I did mostly on the Me-262 at the Johannesburg Military Museum South Africa.
Erich
the old Sage
back to chronological order // who says this cannot be done ?
Janaury 13, 45 Lt. Walter Konantz of the 55th fg shoots down a KG(J)51 262 flown by Unteroffizier Alfred Farber just taking off from his airfield and he was kia.
A photo-recon Mossie from the 25th bg was attacked at random by two 262's of JG 7 evidently not too experienced as the Mossie flew tight turns and evaded their rounds. the two jets came along side of the Mossie and waved to the Mossie pilot and then flew off
Janaury 13, 45 Lt. Walter Konantz of the 55th fg shoots down a KG(J)51 262 flown by Unteroffizier Alfred Farber just taking off from his airfield and he was kia.
A photo-recon Mossie from the 25th bg was attacked at random by two 262's of JG 7 evidently not too experienced as the Mossie flew tight turns and evaded their rounds. the two jets came along side of the Mossie and waved to the Mossie pilot and then flew off
Good pilot, but I can really see a Mossie tangeling with 262's.
Henk
Master Sergeant
That is funny, they waved at the pilot and then flew off, that is good.
I watched a discovery programme on the mustang p-51 battles over germany-one of the americans said he had just shot down his opponent-and after he had bailed out, before he pulled his ripcord,as the american flew past, there was the german pilot saluting him at terminal velocity-I think the american pilots remark was something like 'here was a real professional'
Intersting, never had heard of that.
Henk
Master Sergeant
Well you do get professional pilots and then you get guys who just do there job.
It is like Adolf Galland who shot down a South African fighter pilot during the battle of Briton, everyone thought the SA guy was dead but they found him burnt all over his body and after the war the Adolf Galland went back and searched for him and they later became great friends and when the SA guy died, Adolf Galland said he lost a great friend. They were best of friends. They say that Adolf Galland looked for the people he shot down if they survived the war or not.
It is like Adolf Galland who shot down a South African fighter pilot during the battle of Briton, everyone thought the SA guy was dead but they found him burnt all over his body and after the war the Adolf Galland went back and searched for him and they later became great friends and when the SA guy died, Adolf Galland said he lost a great friend. They were best of friends. They say that Adolf Galland looked for the people he shot down if they survived the war or not.
