Political Parties: Support or Defend Your Political Affiliations

[FLYBOYJ]

reirich, what i read in internet, the democrats wants to upper the taxes and fix the health system and social protection failures and also protect the american industries. the republicans think is better lower the taxes to incentivate the grow of economy.

you cant have the both, lower taxes and fix the problems, you have to choose betwen one or another.

Low taxes - if the government was properly run the "lower" taxes collected by business would more than fund what is needed - the problem there are many pork programs draining the US economy and elected officials who shouldn't be allowed to have a check book, let alone run the largest economy in the world.

 

[Matt308]

Perhaps not Jug. Ronaldus Maximus (Ronald Reagan) proved that reducing the tax burden stimulated the US economy and actually increased tax revenue. In fact his application of tax reductions are now being embraced by the Senate Leader as a possible follow on the recent Bush tax stimulus package.

I don't personally agree with how Bush went about his tax stimulus package (refunds), as I would have preferred that my taxes be reduced upfront. But it was an expedient means given the liberals complete opposition to any return of my tax money. Better not to be taxed, than to be taxed, refunded and taxed with the supposed income.

 

[Njaco]

Bush can't spend one thin dime of the budget without Congress approval. Its Pelosi not Bush.

 

[wilbur1]

McCain is the best offer we got so far.... This moron oblama gets into office, i WILL not support this country ever again. I personnally do NOT want a president that will not cover his heart for the pledge of allegiance.....(oh wait i forgot they made that pledge for the U.S. gee i didnt have to do that when i swore in to service)

 

[wilbur1]

Sorry Matt308 please dont ban me for long..

 

[toiditm]

McCain is the best offer we got so far.... This moron oblama gets into office, i WILL not support this country ever again. I personnally do NOT want a president that will not cover his heart for the pledge of allegiance.....

Vast resources of information are at your fingertips right now. Making vows before you've sought the truth can lead to untenable positions.

 

[Freebird]

I could describe myself as a Jeffersonian Democrat and make some of you look it up. His framework of ideas best describe what I believe to be valuable.

A real noble thinker he was...

Low taxes - if the government was properly run the "lower" taxes collected by business would more than fund what is needed - the problem there are many pork programs draining the US economy and elected officials who shouldn't be allowed to have a check book, let alone run the largest economy in the world.

Amen!

I don't personally agree with how Bush went about his tax stimulus package (refunds), as I would have preferred that my taxes be reduced upfront.

Yeah, the word "Gimmick" comes to mind.

I'm having trouble understanding how people can be in favor of high taxes...

 

[Danielmellbin]

I'm having trouble understanding how people can be in favor of high taxes...

A few reasons from me:

If it wasn't for high taxes I wouldn't be going to university right now. My father who has recently suffered a brainhemmorrhage would not be receiving free training and treatment. One of my sisters who has borderline syndrome (heavy form of depression) would not be receiving free treetment and housing. One of my neighbours would be evicted and homeless. These are just some quick personal examples I could come up with.

 

[evangilder]

A few reasons from me:

If it wasn't for high taxes I wouldn't be going to university right now. My father who has recently suffered a brainhemmorrhage would not be receiving free training and treatment. One of my sisters who has borderline syndrome (heavy form of depression) would not be receiving free treetment and housing. One of my neighbours would be evicted and homeless. These are just some quick personal examples I could come up with.

Free university, free medical care, free treatment, free housing? NONE of those things are free. They have all been paid for with your higher taxes. While you show the brighter side of that system, I am sure there are some that take advantage of the same system. If the money is handled properly, and it may be in your country, then things make sense to a point. Unfortunately, the US congress has a terrible habit of attaching all kinds of pork to the bills that make sense. This not only bloats and dilutes the bill, but wastes money of pet projects that in many cases have nothing to do with the original bill.

I am not a big fan of socialized medicine, and I have lived in both the US and Europe. I want the absolute best that money can buy, and I pay for it (a lot). My family don't have "good" doctors, they have the best ones that are available.

 

[Danielmellbin]

Free university, free medical care, free treatment, free housing? NONE of those things are free. They have all been paid for with your higher taxes. While you show the brighter side of that system, I am sure there are some that take advantage of the same system. If the money is handled properly, and it may be in your country, then things make sense to a point. Unfortunately, the US congress has a terrible habit of attaching all kinds of pork to the bills that make sense. This not only bloats and dilutes the bill, but wastes money of pet projects that in many cases have nothing to do with the original bill.

I am not a big fan of socialized medicine, and I have lived in both the US and Europe. I want the absolute best that money can buy, and I pay for it (a lot). My family don't have "good" doctors, they have the best ones that are available.

Erm... the benefits of high taxes are the free things you mention. And they are free - because taxes pay for them - that was the point (education is not only free - we receive a salary from the state for studying). I goes without saying that proper handling of taxpayers money is paramount. But it seems that you beleive this could never be accomplished in the US? I can't speak for the rest of the continent - but here I choose my own doctor - "the best that money can buy". But if I where to find myself in a period of financial problems and then got seriously ill - there would be nothing to worry about. I take pride in the fact that every time I pay taxes - people less fortunate than me receive the fromerly mentioned services (and more). I am sure you take pride in making the money that asures your family and yourself topnotch treatment. There is simply a very different valuesystem in the states and here. The prejudice in Europe will many times be that Americans are just content with looking out for themselves and have no problem with watching people suffer because thats their own fault. While the American prejudice towards Europeans is that we sacrifice all the wealth accumulated by personal hardship to care for slackers - and then sit down and sing cumbaya. None of these are true - but IMO they do highlight the primary differences in values that we do have (although in a grossly simplistic way).

 

[Njaco]

And they are free - because taxes pay for them - that was the point

You'd make a good politician in New Jersey.

They are NOT free!! The rest of the tax (familar word?) paying public paid for it. Do you not understand the meaning of taxes? You take from somebody's pocket and give it to somebody who doesn't deserve it. But you'll probably say, everybody is equal and you're willing to pay taxes so everybody gets a chance, right? Its like rebates for automobiles. Nothing is FREE except death and even then they take from you.

But heres a question. How does it feel to not have accomplished anything on your own? Is it better to have worked hard in school and go to college on merit or take the ride because the gov. pays for it. How do you appreciate that housing? Did you work hard for it and cherish it or just say "thanks" as the government pays the bill. Like going to Docor Du Jour because you can't afford the better doctor because the gov, takes too much in taxes from you?

Thats the difference between liberals and conservatives. Conservatives believe you make your own without any help. Liberals have to intrude in your life because others aren't as fortunate and you have to pay for that. I'm not working for anyone but me and my family. They come first. But I'm getting sick of the gov. taking my money for affordable housing for those who couldn't care, free driver's licenses for criminals and welfare and food stamps for lazy SOBs who have babies all day and watch Jerry Springer.

Where is the pride in what you do for yourself?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Erm... the benefits of high taxes are the free things you mention. And they are free - because taxes pay for them - that was the point (education is not only free - we receive a salary from the state for studying). I goes without saying that proper handling of taxpayers money is paramount. But it seems that you beleive this could never be accomplished in the US? I can't speak for the rest of the continent - but here I choose my own doctor - "the best that money can buy". But if I where to find myself in a period of financial problems and then got seriously ill - there would be nothing to worry about. I take pride in the fact that every time I pay taxes - people less fortunate than me receive the fromerly mentioned services (and more). I am sure you take pride in making the money that asures your family and yourself topnotch treatment. There is simply a very different valuesystem in the states and here. The prejudice in Europe will many times be that Americans are just content with looking out for themselves and have no problem with watching people suffer because thats their own fault. While the American prejudice towards Europeans is that we sacrifice all the wealth accumulated by personal hardship to care for slackers - and then sit down and sing cumbaya. None of these are true - but IMO they do highlight the primary differences in values that we do have (although in a grossly simplistic way).

Do you speak for your country or all of Europe, because there have been many here (this forum) from the UK who don't feel the same way.

 

[Matt308]

I just have one question. Name a single country or region, past or present, that has taxed itself into prosperity? Just one.

Gov't has its purpose. But when I witness illegal aliens purchasing food that is the the same or better grade than mine with WIC (gov't subsidized) cards in the grocery store, a sane person has to question of the tax base is being fleeced and the handouts are MUCH to prevalant.

 

[evangilder]

Call me a capitalist, (I am, by the way), but when you work hard and accomplish something, the benefit is the reward, ie compensation. To give 60% of everything I earn because I busted my ass to accomplish what others have not seems more a punishment. I am charitable, and give to worthy causes. The current system in the US gives handouts out like candy. I am all for helping out your fellow man when he is down, but I am not at all for someone who is lazy or not here legally getting a free ride. There is way too much fraud and not enough checking in the system as it exists today.

One only need to take a look around in any region close to the southern borders here and see that those who enter this country illegally get better healthcare and benefits than our veterans! THAT isn't right.

 

[renrich]

Thanks Jug, I see what your meaning is now. An answer to the question of higher taxes has been more than amply supplied. Maxine Waters may not be be typical of dimocrat congresspeople, LOL, but there are plenty like her. Sheila Jackson Lee, Boxer, Pelosi several others whose names I can't recall.

 

[renrich]

Why should I, through my tax money, pay for someone else's college education? I went to college and paid for it with scholarships, jobs in summer and during school and student loans which I paid back after graduation. Crowded a four year course into six years. I suspect many more on this forum did the same. As far as Americans helping others, when the Tsunami hit Asia, Donations by American citizens were far more than from any other country. The US continues with fairly substantial foreign aid programs funded by our taxpayers and our military budget pays for our efforts around the world to help maintain peace and stability.

 

[Matt308]

Me? 4 year degree in seven years. Worked at United Parcel Service (graveyard shift) and Todd Shipyards cleaning bilges with a needlegun. Worked my backside off and graduated Magna *** Laude with a BS in Electrical Engineering. Oh. And I payed off all my school loans. Took me about 7 years and was the equivalent of a car payment a month.

So I earned it.

 

[Danielmellbin]

I just have one question. Name a single country or region, past or present, that has taxed itself into prosperity? Just one.

An outtake of the Economist Intelligence Unit's latest assesment of Danish economy:


"For two years running, the Economist Intelligence Unit has nominated Denmark as having the world's best economic climate for foreign investors and Denmark is also among the highest placed countries in several other international comparison tables. Since 1982,

Denmark has pursued a consistent, stability-oriented, macro-economic policy, which among other things has resulted in Denmark today being the EU country with the largest budget surplus of approx. 3.5% of GDP. In addition, unemployment is below 4% and the surplus on the balance of payments is around 2.5% of GDP. Denmark also has one of the best-developed infrastructures (taxpayed) in the world, a very high general level of education (taxpayed) and a very competent workforce (partially taxpayed).

Denmark has a highly skilled and well-educated workforce (taxpayed) that contributes substantially to the strong productivity of Danish trade and industry. A large, wellorganised postgraduate education system (taxpayed) ensures that skills and productivity are continuously improved. Denmark also has competitive labour cost levels. Total labour costs – wages and non-wages – are considerably lower in Denmark than in most other EU countries. This is due to the employers' low cost burden in terms of social security, labour taxes etc. (taxpayed)

Competitive labour costs and high productivity levels combine to make the Danish workforce one of the most cost-effective in Europe. This is further accentuated by the Danes' approach to work, which is best characterised by the words efficiency, company loyalty, motivation, self-reliance and creativity."


So - now you have heard of such a country - and it is the same for the entire scandinavian region. France and Italy are struggling with problems - none of them due to high taxes though. The UK is doing realtively well and so is Germany.

They are NOT free!! The rest of the tax (familar word?) paying public paid for it. Do you not understand the meaning of taxes? You take from somebody's pocket and give it to somebody who doesn't deserve it. But you'll probably say, everybody is equal and you're willing to pay taxes so everybody gets a chance, right? Its like rebates for automobiles. Nothing is FREE except death and even then they take from you.

Free or not free - semantics - as we all know there is no such thing as a free lunch. To the student - his university degree is free. But he repays this debt later in life in form his taxes. So in that respect it is not free as such. But then again he is not forced to repay - in that respect it is free.

It is true that the main philosophy of my political views is that: everybody is equal and you're willing to pay taxes so everybody gets a chance, . As stated here it might seem to be pouring hard working citizens money intoslackers pockets. However this is not true - The more people who get a chance - the more people wil succeed! And this in turn makes the country more profits in the end. Its a long process but very economical to all in the end. Trust me - if the system of high taxation didn't work I would abandon it. However - like i just said - the main philosophy that I mentioned before has the effect of benefitting everybody in the society (including the high income section).

An example: Somebody pays taxes for somebody else's education. That person gets his "undeserved" high education. Later that person might have become a doctor and cure the original taxpayer when he falls ill - OR - he might come to work in that taxpayers business. In the case of the business worker: had he not been educated his work would have had to be imported from abroad at a much higher cost than high taxes. In the case of the doctor: If you remove the tax that person would most likely not have become a doctor and it would also remain to be seen if the taxpayer could afford the needed help had he not combined his wealth with the rest of society. My point here is that although the main philosophy might seem too collective for your liking. The benefits of the system are highly personal - not only collective.

Size also comes into question. Having as big a population as the US does you can rest assured that there will always be enough educated people to "take care of things" (at some level anyway). Small countries do not have this luxury - we can only survive due to a high level of general education and as little waste as possible. High taxation has been proved to offer the least ammount of waste compared to final productivity.

But heres a question. How does it feel to not have accomplished anything on your own? Is it better to have worked hard in school and go to college on merit or take the ride because the gov. pays for it. How do you appreciate that housing? Did you work hard for it and cherish it or just say "thanks" as the government pays the bill. Like going to Docor Du Jour because you can't afford the better doctor because the gov, takes too much in taxes from you?

Without my own hard work I wouldn't become anything - so it feels great. My education might be payed for but those books don't read themselves and the brainactivity to process them and form them into knowledge isn't without sacrifice or hard work. And if people want a good TV package or new nice clothes etc.. - then they have to work while studying - student salaries only cover basic needs. But the ammount of work done while studying is not removing too much focus or energy from the studies themselves.

As for the doctors - this doesn't stand up to scrutiny either: Here you choose your own doctor and the standards for health care are amongst the highest in the world. Furthermore the presence of world-class universities (taxpayed) working at the forefront of technological development contributes to Denmark's strong position within medical technology. Not only is technology at the forefront, the Danish educational system aims at teaching students (taxpayed) to work together, resulting in efficient teamwork and innovative research and products.
During the last few years, the importance of producing graduates with the right profile for the medical technology industry has led to the creation of a number of educations combining medicine with technology (taxpayed).

Call me a capitalist, (I am, by the way), but when you work hard and accomplish something, the benefit is the reward, ie compensation. To give 60% of everything I earn because I busted my ass to accomplish what others have not seems more a punishment. I am charitable, and give to worthy causes. The current system in the US gives handouts out like candy. I am all for helping out your fellow man when he is down, but I am not at all for someone who is lazy or not here legally getting a free ride. There is way too much fraud and not enough checking in the system as it exists today.

One only need to take a look around in any region close to the southern borders here and see that those who enter this country illegally get better healthcare and benefits than our veterans! THAT isn't right.

Me too capitalist
If people didn't get value for their taxes they wouldn't pay them or a political party that wants to abolish the welfarestate would emerge. However this doesn't happen - and there can be only one reason: The system works and even the rich people like it. And for those of you that haven't been here: there are rich people that drive around in ferraris and poor people that hobble along in 1978 vintage deathtrapmobiles. But practically speaking there aren't any people suffering from poverty or heritage (ie. poor parents).

However the US system may be filled with ineffectivness you speak of - naturally you wouldn't want more of that. But - it doesn't mean that it cannot work - simply that it isn't working in its current form. (Not trying to tell you to convert - hope you understand what I mean).

Why should I, through my tax money, pay for someone else's college education? I went to college and paid for it with scholarships, jobs in summer and during school and student loans which I paid back after graduation. Crowded a four year course into six years. I suspect many more on this forum did the same. As far as Americans helping others, when the Tsunami hit Asia, Donations by American citizens were far more than from any other country. The US continues with fairly substantial foreign aid programs funded by our taxpayers and our military budget pays for our efforts around the world to help maintain peace and stability.

Because your society will benefit from it in the end. If I can make life easier for comming generations by working my arse off I will do so - point being: Just because I had to work hard it doesn't mean that I think the next generation should have it just as hard as I did. I do not curse current highschool students for getting larger sallaries than I did - I think its a good thing. As for foreign aid: I don't see the relevance in this discussion? Foreign aid's ammount of the BNP in DK: 0,850% - same number for US: 0,150%. I do not wish to make this into a pissing constest over who does most for the world. We all do alot - and nobody should ever dare to underestimate any country's contribution to the poor areas of the world. But I just want to remind you good folks over the sea that you aren't the only ones helping - and being the largest econmy in the world your total ammounts will naturally be higher than that of other countries.

Good god this has become half a book - sorry - but alot of comments to answer

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Dan all very interesting but I think your low population and work ethic makes your system successful - the only flaw I see (and I know its been mentioned) is supporting your population as it ages.

But what about those who don't want to contribute, who don't want to better themselves and who want to take their education stipend and just party all day, what is done with them?

 

[Njaco]

Size also comes into question.

And that may be the crux of the matter. While I have no clue how things work in Denmark, its success may be attributed to the population size and to a cultural acceptance that the government will do for you as you pay the government. That wasn't what this country was founded on. It was individualistic self help and work that rose oneself out of poverty and upward.

As stated here it might seem to be pouring hard working citizens money into slackers pockets. However this is not true - The more people who get a chance - the more people wil succeed!

While that may be the working philosophy in the EU, it doesn't work here. My job forces me into contact with numerous people and how they live. I don't think there are enough numerals to show how many times I've been in contact with someone - on welfare, on food stamps, college classes paid for, on WIC, on unemployment - who sit around all day with plasma TVs and $$$ of "bling" on their body - colored hair and nails, clothes, etc. And they don't work. Don't lift a finger. But again that may be the difference between the US and EU - a society that accepts the government along with its taxes to better oneself. We don't expect the government to do it for us, we do it ourselves. Much more satisfying IMHO.