Political Parties: Support or Defend Your Political Affiliations

[Danielmellbin]

Dan all very interesting but I think your low population and work ethic makes your system successful - the only flaw I see (and I know its been mentioned) is supporting your population as it ages.

But what about those who don't want to contribute, who don't want to better themselves and who want to take their education stipend and just party all day, what is done with them?

Yes - the sheer size of the state authoryties needed to support such a system in say - the US - is truly mindboggling. The following is just a theoretical thought: Such a system would have to be implemented by federal government and then maintained and evolved under local government to avoid a beaurocratical nightmare. But the federal government would still need to be involved to maintain relative equality between the states. As I said this is just "out of the blue" thinking - not meant as a "this is how it should be done".

You are right that the question of demographics is a big challenge to the welfare states. So far the challenge has been met by various programs. Increased retirementage, slighty lowered welfare payments and various incetives to make people retire later.

Those who don't want to contribute is another problem that emerges from time to time in various sectors. However it has never caused anything close to critical situations. Bluntly put the biggest strain on the welfare state stems from immigrants. They have not been raised in the system and as such have not gotten the same values injected from childhood. Also they do not take pride in the society - understandable in many cases. This is an evil spiral that leads to more rascism that in turn leads to less pride among the immigrants and so on... There has been a major "intregation" effort made by the state to remedy this in the latest years. It has improved the situation but still requires work from both immigrants and "natives" alike.

However the leaches and loopholes that exist are exposed and closed day by day. IE: Recipients of unemployment welfare are registered in a "jobdatabase" accessible by most businesses. These people then loose their welfare if they turn down a job. Students have a limited ammount of time complete their studies and thus claim their student sallaries - if they exceed this time without proper reasons they have to pay for the rest of the education by themselves. There are no free rides - atleast not any that remain open for long.

 

[Matt308]

So - now you have heard of such a country - and it is the same for the entire scandinavian region.

Alas you have only made a partial attemt to answere the spirit of the comment. If some taxation is good, and lots of taxation like that in Scandanavia is better, then even further taxation must be even better for the economy. And surely you don't believe that.

 

[Njaco]

Wouldn't that mean that the State would provide everything, Comrade?

 

[Danielmellbin]

Alas you have only made a partial attemt to answere the spirit of the comment. If some taxation is good, and lots of taxation like that in Scandanavia is better, then even further taxation must be even better for the economy. And surely you don't believe that.

Nah - "bigger is better is" is the US philosophy


But seriously: Its not a matter of taxation as such. Its researching/learning which ammount of taxation provides the biggest ammount of welfare without undermining personal economic gains or other natural free market functions.

Higher taxation than that in my country would be tantamount to colectivization - bad! - everybody agrees on that here.

 

[Matt308]

In the US, we call it wealth redistribution.

 

[Danielmellbin]

And that may be the crux of the matter. While I have no clue how things work in Denmark, its success may be attributed to the population size and to a cultural acceptance that the government will do for you as you pay the government. That wasn't what this country was founded on. It was individualistic self help and work that rose oneself out of poverty and upward.



While that may be the working philosophy in the EU, it doesn't work here. My job forces me into contact with numerous people and how they live. I don't think there are enough numerals to show how many times I've been in contact with someone - on welfare, on food stamps, college classes paid for, on WIC, on unemployment - who sit around all day with plasma TVs and $$$ of "bling" on their body - colored hair and nails, clothes, etc. And they don't work. Don't lift a finger. But again that may be the difference between the US and EU - a society that accepts the government along with its taxes to better oneself. We don't expect the government to do it for us, we do it ourselves. Much more satisfying IMHO.

Yes the welfare state is at odds with some of the principal and founding ideas in the US. But I think that those founding ideas are at odds with the realties of modern societies (the need for education and other high cost services).

That state of affairs you mention is truly sad. But as I see it there are only two solutions:

1.More government to root out the leaches - this will cost more (taxes) at first. But less as effectiveness and results are gained over time.

2.Cancel welfareprograms and thus be able to lower taxes (increasing the private investment potential) and eliminate leaches. However this will also hit those truly in need - and cause a wave of economic missery and homelessness.

Agree? - disagree?

 

[Danielmellbin]

Wouldn't that mean that the State would provide everything, Comrade?

Da! (reaches out for a sip of the stolichnaya while reading mao's little red)



Nah seriously: Further taxation here would be leading to socialism in its true form - and thats neither good nor do-able. Proven over and over again by history.

 

[Matt308]

Agree? - disagree?

I think that you answered your own question above. Nobody is advocating zero taxes. Rather, as you noted there is a line of demarcation that must be assessed based upon gov't role in a free citizens life. You just draw that line WAAAAY above where I would.

 

[renrich]

Fine discussion, I must say. Matt, you are a great example of what makes this country great. My deal was working in the oil patch in the summer, worked delivering mail during the Christmas holidays and had a job in the intramural sports dept of SMU paying 50 dollars per month. Only put in about 20 hours per week. Owed about two or three thousand in 59 when I graduated. Took me several years at $17.50/ month to pay it back. Only reason I mentioned foreign aid and private donations was to show that people in the US and our government care about other people, just like people in Denmark do. Once again, I suspect that a major difference between us is size and the fact that Denmark has a much more homogeneous population than we do. Probably the literacy rate is higher there also. If Denmark had the demographic situation we have and one day you may experience that, the statistics on the economy would look much different. Also we do support the large military budget which Denmark does not. I doubt that Denmark had too much to do with keeping the USSR from gobbling up the rest of Europe during the Cold War or contributed much during the Berlin Airlift or had many troops in Korea.

 

[Njaco]

Agree? - disagree?

I agree with your two choices but I also agree with Matts response. I don't think I would mind taxes so much if I could see some kind of successful return. That doesn't happen here in the US. Every social entitlement program has failed.

Ren, I may be the worse off, who knows. HS dropout at 17, went back to get my GED and passed (with no studying - kinda proud of that) then worked my way through kennels and such to the government job now. Past 20 years worked hard to become a vice-pres of our State association. Also became heavily involved with my local union (largest in the state for state workers) to the point of being a senior shop steward and on the union PAC. Been to the Police Academy twice where for a time I taught cadets.

While I wish some things were different, I choose my own road. My main complaint is while I work hard at what I have - and it really ain't much - I see others who do far less have far more, all thanks to entitlement programs. Its an itch I just can't scratch.

 

[renrich]

Njaco, my hats off to you. College degrees often don't mean Jack. I never used mine as it was BS in geology and in 59, the oil industry was not hiring because we had more production in the US than we could use. How times have changed. My father had a GED and started off sweeping out the depot and on a section gang for the railroad. Worked his way up to Passenger Traffic Manager, head of passenger service. Only worked for the RR 52 years. Opportunity abounds in this country to get ahead. If I was a little younger I would go out and get a job roughnecking in this oil and gas boom we have in western Colorado. There are rigs everywhere and those are high paying jobs. All I want is get the government out of the way, keep taxes low and the devil take the hindmost.

 

[Njaco]

Agreed. And the best part of it all, was that somehow, someway, I made my father proud. That keeps me going.

But that was what I meant when Daniel was posting about the situation in Denmark and elsewhere. Its a different mindset when it comes to the individual citizen here in the US. And some don't give a rats arse what they do with themselves as long as the governent babysits them and they can whine about it.

 

[renrich]

We have a situation here and some would call it racial and maybe so but it demonstrates what we are talking about. The Southern Utes are very wealthy because their tribal lands have a bunch of oil and gas deposits. Each Ute when becoming 18 gets a big check from the tribal council and a little later they get a yearly check that is enough to live on frugally. Many of them just choose to sit around as a result. Another result is that the council bought up a bunch of land near here, donated enough for a hospital and is trying to do a 500 acre residential and commercial development around the hospital. Since they have no experience doing real estate they have the wrong residential product at the wrong price point and the retail and commercial doesn't work because everyone in the area goes into Durango to shop at Walmart. A fool and his money are soon parted. They had a good opportunity and fumbled the ball because the money came too easily to them.

 

[Matt308]

Same here in Washington State, The Puyallup tribe developed HUGE gambling casinos (only native americans are allowed to do so) and the basis for the approval for gambling was all the revenue generated for the tribe members. Well about 8 years ago, I read that amounted to about $80k per tribal member household. Not bad for doing nothing.

You drive though this area and it is the biggest pig sty you have ever seen in your life. Dilapidated cars, boats, trailers, fishing equipment, trash, condemned structures, tires... you name it strewn everywhere.

 

[renrich]

Yep, same here and a brand new high end casino in Ignacio called Sky Ute and the residential areas in Ignacio pretty trsahy.

 

[mkloby]

We have a situation here and some would call it racial and maybe so but it demonstrates what we are talking about. The Southern Utes are very wealthy because their tribal lands have a bunch of oil and gas deposits. Each Ute when becoming 18 gets a big check from the tribal council and a little later they get a yearly check that is enough to live on frugally. Many of them just choose to sit around as a result. Another result is that the council bought up a bunch of land near here, donated enough for a hospital and is trying to do a 500 acre residential and commercial development around the hospital. Since they have no experience doing real estate they have the wrong residential product at the wrong price point and the retail and commercial doesn't work because everyone in the area goes into Durango to shop at Walmart. A fool and his money are soon parted. They had a good opportunity and fumbled the ball because the money came too easily to them.

Doesn't that seem to be all too common when money is not earned, but given? I recently read that approximately 60% of lotto winners later declare bankruptcy... I do not know what size winnings or anything else was included in the data.

 

[ToughOmbre]

Doesn't that seem to be all too common when money is not earned, but given? I recently read that approximately 60% of lotto winners later declare bankruptcy... I do not know what size winnings or anything else was included in the data.

Right! Many lotto winners go belly up. Tells you something doesn't it.

BTW, Nice to have you back on the forum.

TO

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Doesn't that seem to be all too common when money is not earned, but given? I recently read that approximately 60% of lotto winners later declare bankruptcy... I do not know what size winnings or anything else was included in the data.

I think its a matter of personal financial responsibility. We tend to live out of our means, fiance our recreation and fail to worry about the long term consequences. In the 80s this was the norm - I spent money like a drunken sailor figuring that my income will be guaranteed and although I was carrying a debt, I'd have many years to pay it off - boy was that stupid!

In the past 5 years I've learned - thanks to a steady job and a very sharp wife, we are doing well, no debt except our home and even though it's worth about $5K less than what we paid for it, I still have equity.

Not to say I'm a raging financial genius but being a little thrifty and refusing to fiance recreation seems to be the answer that worked for me.

 

[renrich]

Matt, good to hear from you. I do think many lottery winners have problems. Course, the controller at a ski resort where I worked won about 6M and he resigned, moved to Tucson and is happily living off his investments. I was in Farmington NM playing golf around a month ago on a Friday and one of those tilt rotor dinguses flew over us about 5 times. Wasn't you was it?

 

[pbfoot]

Njaco, my hats off to you. College degrees often don't mean Jack. .

but they do in todays world