Rudel's tank kill count is correct?

Thumpalumpacus said:

Greg, everything I've read (Shirer and Goldhagen each go into this in some detail) indicates that no more than 10-12% of Germany's 80 million citizens joined the NaZi party.

Click to expand...

Well, one of my very good friends married a German girl after the war. Her story was significantly different. According to her, she was a 16-year old girl at the end of the war, and her family had to join the party or not eat much. They joined, though without much enthusiasm. She was an airplane spotter for the Luftwaffe. She sat in a wooden tower and called in airplanes she saw including type, number, speed, altitude and heading. She said that after about mid-1942, things got much more difficult for people who didn't join the party.

That story line is backed up by another three people who were in Germany during the war as children. While they didn't join the Hitler Youth or any other organizations, they had the same story about food being dispersed primarily to party members.

Now, it's true, I was NOT there. But, I've heard the same story in various forms from a total of about 5 - 6 people, including adults, who were in Nazi Germany. Perhaps they were and are lying, I can't say for sure. If someone WAS an ardent Nazi, would they admit it? Likely not. But their main message was that almost all of Germany was aware they had made an error electing Hitler after about early 1942 but, by that time, the populace had been disarmed and there was no point charging machine guns with farm tools to attempt to force a change in Government. They just wanted the war to be over and the bombing to stop. While many were aware of the atrocities the Nazis committed, a large percent of the population were not, if only by virtue of not living close enough to a concentration camp to know and the difficulty in traveling and communicating during the war. Not everyone had a secret radio transmitter. Those that did were never aware of when a radio direction finder was near, and very many got caught. The punishment was not pretty. Wandering Allied fighters did not discriminate between strafing German military convoys and a family in a car, and travel without some valid reason for it was not encouraged and frequently was simply not allowed.

Other reports and books notwithstanding, the Nazis were in power and those who objected too loudly usually didn't survive the war. It isn't well reported, but the Nazis, in addition to committing the holocaust, executed over 5 million Germans who were NOT of Jewish descent. Most were simply dissenters and people who were not willing to give at least lip support to the party. You could escape Nazi Germany but, if you got caught in the attempt, the survival rate was not very high.

GregP said:

Well, one of my very good friends married a German girl after the war. Her story was significantly different. According to her, she was a 16-year old girl at the end of the war, and her family had to join the party or not eat much. They joined, though without much enthusiasm. She was an airplane spotter for the Luftwaffe. She sat in a wooden tower and called in airplanes she saw including type, number, speed, altitude and heading. She said that after about mid-1942, things got much more difficult for people who didn't join the party.

That story line is backed up by another three people who were in Germany during the war as children. While they didn't join the Hitler Youth or any other organizations, they had the same story about food being dispersed primarily to party members.

Now, it's true, I was NOT there. But, I've heard the same story in various forms from a total of about 5 - 6 people, including adults, who were in Nazi Germany. Perhaps they were and are lying, I can't say for sure. If someone WAS an ardent Nazi, would they admit it? Likely not. But their main message was that almost all of Germany was aware they had made an error electing Hitler after about early 1942 but, by that time, the populace had been disarmed and there was no point charging machine guns with farm tools to attempt to force a change in Government. They just wanted the war to be over and the bombing to stop. While many were aware of the atrocities the Nazis committed, a large percent of the population were not, if only by virtue of not living close enough to a concentration camp to know and the difficulty in traveling and communicating during the war. Not everyone had a secret radio transmitter. Those that did were never aware of when a radio direction finder was near, and very many got caught. The punishment was not pretty. Wandering Allied fighters did not discriminate between strafing German military convoys and a family in a car, and travel without some valid reason for it was not encouraged and frequently was simply not allowed.

Click to expand...

I'm going by the statistics on party membership and population numbers and pointing out that the vast majority of Germans were not members of the Nazi party, even if they were sympathetic -- or turned their gaze away from the regime's crimes in order to support their families with jobs and food and suchlike, because eating is pretty important.

Goldhagen in particular goes into the issues you bring up regarding awareness of the broader German population of the Shoah. I believe many weren't, and many were. I don't know that anyone can provide useful numbers in that regard. But those who felt so much sympathy with Nazi causes that they joined the party was relatively small.

That should obviously be smaller than the numbers of people who sympathized with Nazi aims but didn't join the party for whatever reason(s) they might personally have, simply because extremists, by definition, are almost always on the small end of the bell-curve.

GregP said:

......holocaust, executed over 5 million Germans who were NOT of Jewish descent......

Click to expand...

Would you have a source for that figure - since IMO you added a 0 too much.

Fact: "only" 34% of Germany's legible voters voted for the NSDAP in 1933 - after that Hitler enacted the emergency laws and simply took over the country.
So about 66% in 1933 already were aware that things will likely not go well. However due to Hitlers impressive and fast victories many who had not voted for the NSDAP were
actually impressed about how great Germany had gotten under the NSDAP. Before Hitler declared war onto Russia - about 55-60% of the country were in favor of the NSDAP.

But again not more then 5 million actually had an idea about what the NSDAP was really up to. And from those 5 million - 4,5 were convinced to do the right thing whilst the
remaining 500,000 decided to keep their mouth and eyes shut. (Like my grandfather).

One needs to draw a clear line between convinced and active Nazi followers (maybe 5 million), followers due to financial economic reasons (3 million), and those more or less forced being government and civil employees. (1 million)
Food was rationed and every family (independent of party membership) received the same rations. That "connections" amongst NSDAP members helped to gain access towards
non-ration card associated food-supplies is certainly correct. But no one was starving or suffering from food shortages in Germany so as to become a member.

My aunt had two workers in her company "were it was rumored" that these two had been at Dachau - no body asked them and they never mentioned anything or turned away immediately upon being approached on the matter.
Several people who I had talked to, lived in the immediate vicinity of KZ Flossenbuerg - they all knew that something bad was going on there - but no one dared to ask.
The first time they saw people in pajamas was when they were marched out of the camp at night in Spring 1945 to be translated to Southern regions.
Nobody asked who these people are or where they are going.

Nazi Germany was an absolute police-state were everyone watched everyone including the own family members or the kids who were in the HJ or BDM and would report
their parents (simply because their mother e.g. refused to give them chocolate, or allow them to stay up longer) for listening to the BBC or saying/mentioning anything negative
about the party or the war itself.
The greatest number of "unknowing" but most valuable supporters of the Nazis were the kids and youngsters. Every government department or Wehrmacht-unit had "Party-boys" embedded into their units or departments.

And Rudel was one of those 5 million convinced and active followers.

As a high school senior in 1958, we had a German displaced person in our class. At 23 Gustav didn't discuss his time in Germany or have much in common with the US students. One rare conversation with him, he said a requirement to go to school was membership in Hitler youth during the last years.

number of member of fascist/nazi party in italy/germany are not indicative of population support, and i'm not telling that they have not this, one of my grandfather joined to the PNF (fascist party) just for continue to work, he get a choice join to the party and continue him work as shoes maker artisan or close and he previously was one of founder of socialist party in my town (back from germany he was POW in WWI) and later will become one of founder of the communist party in the town (just after the allied transit)

Thumpalumpacus said:

I'm going by the statistics on party membership and population numbers and pointing out that the vast majority of Germans were not members of the Nazi party, even if they were sympathetic -- or turned their gaze away from the regime's crimes in order to support their families with jobs and food and suchlike, because eating is pretty important.

Goldhagen in particular goes into the issues you bring up regarding awareness of the broader German population of the Shoah. I believe many weren't, and many were. I don't know that anyone can provide useful numbers in that regard. But those who felt so much sympathy with Nazi causes that they joined the party was relatively small.

That should obviously be smaller than the numbers of people who sympathized with Nazi aims but didn't join the party for whatever reason(s) they might personally have, simply because extremists, by definition, are almost always on the small end of the bell-curve.

Click to expand...

I'm not going by statistics compiled from some study that might or might not be statistically correct. Biased sampling procedures used about the time of WWII predicted many things incorrectly, including the infamous "Dewey Defeats Truman" newspaper stories in 1948, right AFTER the war. The main issues were flawed sampling procedures. or rather the lack of an unbiased sample population. Very many statistical studies are flawed in the extreme due to sample bias. They usually make textbooks as case studies in bias. Bias comes in many forms, including unintentional bias. And, bias is not necessarily a negative term. In statistics, it simply means a sample is unrepresentative of the overall population of interest.

If you take a sample of 2,000 people at some shopping mall, you do NOT have a good sample of the entire population's ideas. All you have is a good sample of the ideas of people who shop at that particular shopping mall.

In the above posts, I'm going on first-hand reports from people who were there, didn't know each other, and have no axe to grind other than maybe not admitting they were in the party by choice. The salient points of their stories were all more or less aligned, including the fact that most people they knew WERE in the party, or at least affiliated in some manner, if only out of personal protection.

Hi Jagdleiger. You may be right. I'm thinking of an old report I read on Germans killed by Germans, excluding the Jewish population. But I do not find it today, at least in a quick lookup on Google. The numbers I find today would indicate from 300,000 to 500,000. But I DID read the 5 million number as recently as 10 years ago. I wonder if the revisionists are doing their stuff, trying to make WWII seems somehow "nicer?"

Either way, having a population of children reporting on adults is fraught with false claims. Many kids have little notion of right and wrong when any story is rewarded with things they want. like food when it is scarce or approval when they have little of it.

The 5 million is the conventional number of non-jews murdered by the Nazis. It includes Germans, Poles, Russians, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies, homosexuals, "defectives", and anyone else who got in their way.
This does not include those who were killed by military action.

Vincenzo said:

number of member of fascist/nazi party in italy/germany are not indicative of population support, and i'm not telling that they have not this, one of my grandfather joined to the PNF (fascist party) just for continue to work, he get a choice join to the party and continue him work as shoes maker artisan or close and he previously was one of founder of socialist party in my town (back from germany he was POW in WWI) and later will become one of founder of the communist party in the town (just after the allied transit)

Click to expand...

I agree, that in a dictatorship with basically only one available party, a party-membership isn't a 100% indicative as towards the actual political conviction of the respective member.

Unfortunately only NSDAP members or those serving in the SS were put through the de-nazification process. If the Allies would have questioned victims of the Nazis (the so called
general population) they would have had to probably place half the population out of a job and face punishment. But destabilization to such an extend wasn't in the interest of the Allies
and neither the Germans especially after 1949. (West-Germany).
Many of those facing the de-nazification process even turned onto their victims in order to get "favorable" papers. E.g. the headmaster of my aunt's school (an ardent Nazi) who was responsible for her not being able to attend university, approached her asking for a statement that he wasn't a "real" Nazi. Which my aunt gave - not willing to destroy this mans career means in order to support his family. A decision she fought with herself till the day she passed away.

Furthermore many hardliner Nazi's were knowingly employed by the Allies and as such were even enabled to help other higher ranking Nazis to keep the idiology alive. News of these "hidden" Nazi's especially in German government service and state positions became known publicly in the 60's, as such being the prime source for the "leftist" termed student movements right down to the terrorist organizations such as the RAF.

No one in my family was a member of the party (except one uncle who was in the SS). If I recall correctly any food shortage they suffered from was because of the war and not because of lack of party membership.

People may have believed it was from lack of party membership but there is no factual evidence of this.

Interesting side note, my Opa (Grandfather) who was a doctor and served in the Heer in both France in 1940 and then later on the East Front had to go through a process after the war before he could practice medicine again. Unfortunately he passed. I wish I could ask more from him about it.

GregP said:

I'm not going by statistics compiled from some study that might or might not be statistically correct. Biased sampling procedures used about the time of WWII predicted many things incorrectly, including the infamous "Dewey Defeats Truman" newspaper stories in 1948, right AFTER the war. The main issues were flawed sampling procedures. or rather the lack of an unbiased sample population. Very many statistical studies are flawed in the extreme due to sample bias. They usually make textbooks as case studies in bias. Bias comes in many forms, including unintentional bias. And, bias is not necessarily a negative term. In statistics, it simply means a sample is unrepresentative of the overall population of interest.

If you take a sample of 2,000 people at some shopping mall, you do NOT have a good sample of the entire population's ideas. All you have is a good sample of the ideas of people who shop at that particular shopping mall.

In the above posts, I'm going on first-hand reports from people who were there, didn't know each other, and have no axe to grind other than maybe not admitting they were in the party by choice. The salient points of their stories were all more or less aligned, including the fact that most people they knew WERE in the party, or at least affiliated in some manner, if only out of personal protection.

Click to expand...

Anecdotes aren't evidence. These statistics aren't predictive; they're based on captured party rolls and the like, and reflect facts. Nor are they based on sample-polling, rendering that comparison of yours nugatory.

You're free to believe what you wish, but I'll go with folks who've studied the issue in depth.

The NSDAP had broad support throughout the Third Reich, but party rolls reflect the fact that the vast majority of Germans were not members of the party. That is a fact, and that is the only fact that I am arguing.

And it is logical because not everybody was allowed to join. And do not forget that Germany was devided into brown and red. Brown won but not everybody was all of a sudden a nazi.

Snautzer01 said:

.....do not forget that Germany was devided into brown and red. Brown won but not everybody was all of a sudden a nazi.

Click to expand...

Not as simple as that if I might add.

Before 1933 even those voting for the NSDAP had in vast majority (I would estimate more then 95%) no idea as to the actual hidden ideology of the Nazis. Since it was never openly or
publicly propagated. And only known to a very limited circle in the NSDAP's higher echelons. It was merely a Party that had nationalist agendas and foremost a cancellation of the Versailles treaty on it's flags. Independently of a fear by a rather small part of the German population towards a Communist takeover - it was essentially the Versailles agenda that brought them 33% in 1932.

Only those who had actually read "Mein Kampf" or at least parts of it, had a basic idea of what Hitlers agenda really was about. Even I admit despite several attempts I never managed
to read through it in it's entirety - since it is so filled with hatred, total nonsense and abstruse comparisons. Hitler and his inner circle had realized that with 33% and no prospects of gaining additional voters, rather they expected the opposite to happen, initiated the Reichstagsbrand and blaming it onto a Communist. (6 days before the coming election of 1933).
As such on March 5th 1933 Hitler had already before managed to persuade Hindenburg to proclaim the emergency law - thus enabling the Nazis to resorting to force, intimidation and violence towards other parliament members and the German population, and therefore garnered 44%.

The Nazis had realized that the general German population would need to be ridden of potential opposition, and instituted "Gleichschaltung" (standardization and control of political, economic, and social institutions) of the populace before opening up their true ideology.

Demonstrating their ideology publicly first in 1935 with the passing of the racial laws. and reaching it's height with the "night of broken glass" in November 1938.
By then, but actually already by 1935 the general German populace had no means to counter the Nazi policy and ideology. Even many of those who had voted for the NSDAP in 1932 and 1933 had only then realized who they had actually really voted for.

So being an NSDAP member or having voted for them is one issue, being an ardent Nazi (like Rudel) is a very different issue, since he knowingly accepted and supported that ideology.

All i said that there where other political idears in Germany and people did not all of a sudden change those believes.

Jagdflieger said:

So being an NSDAP member or having voted for them is one issue, being an ardent Nazi (like Rudel) is a very different issue, since he knowingly accepted and supported that ideology.

Click to expand...

So you say that during time NSDAP members did not get other ideas from their leaders?

Snautzer01 said:

All i said that there where other political idears in Germany and people did not all of a sudden change those believes.

Click to expand...

Correct that is why you received a like

Snautzer01 said:

So you say that during time NSDAP members did not get other ideas from their leaders?

Click to expand...

I never said that, I mentioned those who had voted or were members of the NSDAP before 1933

IMO, someone who had joint the NSDAP after 1935 and especially after 1938 can't claim that he wasn't aware about the Nazi ideology - no matter the excuses he gave.

Jagdflieger said:

IMO, someone who had joint the NSDAP after 1935 and especially after 1938 can't claim that he wasn't aware about the Nazi ideology - no matter the excuses he gave.

Click to expand...

Ah i see now thanks. That i can get my head around.

Thumpalumpacus said:

Anecdotes aren't evidence. These statistics aren't predictive; they're based on captured party rolls and the like, and reflect facts. Nor are they based on sample-polling, rendering that comparison of yours nugatory.

You're free to believe what you wish, but I'll go with folks who've studied the issue in depth.

The NSDAP had broad support throughout the Third Reich, but party rolls reflect the fact that the vast majority of Germans were not members of the party. That is a fact, and that is the only fact that I am arguing.

Click to expand...

I know you believe that, Thumper. But very many things taken as having been conclusively proven have been shown to be false after careful study. In the case of WWII, people concentrated on things that proved the Allies were correct good and the Nazis were not and evil. So, sure, they may have found some evidence of something and may have repressed evidence the other way. Even in the Nazi party, people didn't agree, In fact, Hitler actively encouraged infighting among his top staff. So, they all may very well have written things that are directly contradictory with one another.

It's the other way to me. You go ahead and believe what you want. Having seen the photos and family albums of at least 6 former WWII-era Germans, they all tell the same story. And it isn't what you have said.

Either way, it was a time and a place I would have not wanted to live in. Perhaps we can agree on that.

Cheers.

Ovod said:

It looks very much like an aero engine because in all likelyhood it is based upon one - most likely the Hispano Suiza V12 unit. Many US tanks were also powered by aero engines.

Click to expand...

According to the referenced report:
"Although the design and development may quite possibly have been influenced by Hispano Suiza there do not appear to any salient features to support this statement."

Ovod said:

Many US tanks were also powered by aero engines.

Click to expand...

Not many.

Some American tanks were equipped with the Continental R-670 or the Continental R-975.

Then again, many were equipped with diesel engines like the GM 6-71 as well as being equipped with gasoline engines like the Ford GAA or Chrysler A57.