Terrorist attack In New Zealand

[Zipper730]

Current law in the US defines domestic terrorism as "activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State; (B) appear to be intended (a) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (b) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (c) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States." International terrorism is defined in similar terms.

The domestic terrorism criteria of acts that are a violation of state or local law that are dangerous was kind of added through various riders into unrelated legislation aimed at slipping in parts of the DSEA, which many called Patriot II, into law.

The earlier criteria involving the use of unlawful force aimed at furthering a political agenda that don't include government officials (from what I remember, that was a criteria so as to avoid any acts of war from being labeled as terrorist acts). It'd still fit regardless of which criteria were used.

I think sadly politicians and the media take advantage of tragedies like this to push their agenda

Agreed

Is there really a difference between targeting somebody because of their religion vs the color of their hair (like a number of serial killers)?

Well, not all serial killers have motivations that are political. I suppose you could call a serial killer with a political motivation as being a terrorist, though it's not usually done.

The definition of serial killer changed over the years

1. Initially they were all considered mass-murder, though the Germans created the term Serienmorder in 1930, the term "serial killer" was coined in the US in 1971 though the term "series murders" might have been used prior to "serial murder".
2. When the criteria of serial-murder was branched off from mass-murder: The criteria included three murders with a cooling-off period between each murder (there was also a criteria called "spree-murder")
3. In 2005, they changed the definition to: The unlawful killing of two or more people by the same offenders, at separate events: The number required was reduced from three to two to make it easier for the FBI to intercede in matters, and the cooling off period was removed because nobody really could arrive at a consensus of what qualified as a cooling-off period.
4. As a result spree-murders (this included three murders without a cooling off period) were now considered serial killers.

Yeah, I read a lot about serial killers and murders of all sorts -- you'd be surprised how many people like me exist in the US -- that said, I'm sort of majoring in criminal justice (something I've joked about it as getting credit for watching shit-loads of Law & Order, and Forensic Files episodes -- the truth is it proved HUGELY beneficial).

That's because the root causes are very difficult, time consuming and expensive to deal with and require much more than just passing a simple law.
Consider some of the basic commonalities among "mass shooters"

Mass shooters invariably exhibit an unbroken series of disappointments, frustrations and letdowns. Typically, these may start as early as grade school or high school, and continue into college, a business or a profession. Typically they have failed at nearly everything they tried to accomplish in life. . . . never blame themselves or their actions for their failures. Instead, they hold some group — or society as a whole — as being responsible for their lack of success. . . . Mass shooters invariably exhibit a very high degree of self-centeredness that precludes empathy for other people. Mass shooters lack compassion. They see their victims as mere symbols for something they want to annihilate.

That's kind of what I meant when I said quite a number seemed more personality disordered, than they seemed mentally ill.

Social isolation is probably the number one common denominator among mass shooters.

Correct, in some cases, this isolation is from social rejection itself -- if nobody will hang around you, you will not have social support. In other cases of school-shooters, you have people who want to be popular and can't quite pull it off, so they won't hang out with people who they seen as beneath them; by adult age: The issue would involve loners that, as you described, were either never married, divorced, or alienated from their families.

Though you mention social media, these things occurred even before most of these sites came online. There was one case that I posted earlier, dated November 12, 1966 (that one surprised me actually, because it was such an early case, that also had such a well defined motive that could apply just as well modern day).

The character of the media has made things greatly worse. In the olde days, there weren't dedicated news-media outlets like CNN; there were TV stations that, as part of their duty, required them to broadcast the news for one hour. It was generally a loss-leader. It's now classified as entertainment, and whenever something horrible happens they dive into it, and they focus on the killer, not the victims. They go on and on about this person, and what drove him/her to kill.

 

[GrauGeist]

That idiot really stirred up a hornet's nest in the Balkans, by the way.
Not sure if anyone saw his live video, but a Serbian nationalist song was playing in the background as he was driving to the mosque.
There was also anti-muslim/balkan related references written on his rifle and magazines - but the word "Shipka" on one of the magazines has Bulgaria in a rage.
For those that may not be aware, the Battle of Shipka was where the Bulgarians finally made a stand against Muslim/Ottoman rule, literally hurling rocks, bodies, spent rifles and anything else at the Turks in the final battle that turned the tide of the war in Bulgaria's favor.
Shipka to Bulgaria is a sacred word.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Yeah, I read a lot about serial killers and murders of all sorts -- you'd be surprised how many people like me exist in the US -- that said, I'm sort of majoring in criminal justice (something I've joked about it as getting credit for watching shit-loads of Law & Order, and Forensic Files episodes -- the truth is it proved HUGELY beneficial).

Back in the early 90's, I seriously considered going into forensics or profiling and have been an avid reader/viewer since, so I totally hear you.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"...Shipka to Bulgaria is a sacred word."


To me. the most dishonest aspect of this terrorist event is the linkage between Islamic terrorism and Immigration policy.
I stand with countries such as Hungary, Poland and Slovakia who demand the right to determine their own immigration policy. Europe suffered greatly for centuries from the ravages and injustices of a Turkish Caliphate. Those countries: the Balkans, Hungary, Austria, Ukraine, Poland, not to mention Russia itself with a vast indigenous Muslim population, all have a right to remember their history and experience. A 'No Borders' policy is an invitation to suicide, IMO, and when a society pursues such policies, celebrates such policies, it alienates some people .... people who feel they and/or their values are being discarded ... and some of those people will go to the extreme .... and we see what can happen.

Actions always have consequences.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I'm letting this convo continue, but please remember to not go uber-politics here.

 

[mikewint]

On the morning of Tuesday, September 6, 1949, Howard Unruh, 28, and a WWII war veteran would embark upon his "Walk of Death," murdering 13 people and wounding three others in a 20-minute rampage before being hauled off by police after a dangerous firefight.
In WWII while in combat, he had kept meticulous notes of every German he killed. He would mark down the day, hour, and place, and when circumstances allowed, describe the corpses in bloody detail. He was honorably discharged.

Unruh is generally regarded as the first of the "lone wolf" type of modern mass murderers. Unruh was a distinctive personality type, one that today has come to closely match the mass murder profile. He had a rigid temperament, an inability to accept frustration or people not treating him as well as he wanted, and a feeling of isolation. He was quick to anger, held grudges, owned weapons he knew how to use, and decided somebody was going to pay for all his perceived slights. A psychiatrist would later write, "After WWII, after [Unruh] returned home, he did not work nor did he any life goals or directions, had difficulty adjusting or solving problems and was, 'angry at the world.'"

For a couple of years, Unruh had been contemplating killing several of his Cramer Hill neighbors over petty squabbles, perceived slights and name-calling, all which fed into his psychosis. Unruh thought the world was out to get him, so he decided to enact revenge on those who had slighted him, a group of local shopkeepers, a druggist, a shoemaker, a tailor and a restaurant owner.

It all came to a head that September 6th morning. Unruh collected his German "war souvenir" Luger, two full clips and several loose shells, a six-inch knife, and a tear gas pen with six shells and began his "Walk". Unruh first shot at a bread deliveryman in his truck, but missed. He then walked into the shoemaker's store and, without saying a word, shot and killed John Pilarchik. Then he entered the barbershop next door killing Clark Hoover, the barber, and 6yo Orris Smith, but ignored the boys mother. Back on the street Unruh shot at a boy in a window, but missed. He then fired into a tavern across the street. Unruh reloaded and headed into the drugstore to confront his primary targets, the Cohens but first he shot James Hutton who was coming out of the drugstore. Next were Maurice and his wife Rose, followed by Maurice's mother Minnie. Back on the street he killed four motorists Alvin Day, 24, a television repairman, Helen Wilson and her mother Emma Matlack and wounded Helen's son, John Wilson, 9. Next on his list was the tailor. Unruh entered the tailor shop where his shot Helen Zegrino. Next door was Thomas Hamilton, 3. Unruh shot through the window killing the boy. On his final stop Unruh broke into a home behind his apartment lot and wounded a mother and son, Madeline Harrie and Armand, 16, before running out of ammo and retreating to his apartment.

Soon more than 50 officers surrounded the building, and began blasting away at the apartment with machine guns, shotguns, and pistols. After lobbing two tear gas into the apartment Unruh walked out and was arrested. Less than 24 hours after his arrest, he was transferred to the Vroom Building for the criminally insane at Trenton Psychiatric Hospital, voluntarily. He would remain on the grounds for the next 60 years as Case No. 47,077. Unruh would never stand trial for the "Walk of Death."

 

[The Basket]

What is with killing children this Unruh fellow? Cos they won't have upset him?
Coz if he was shooting for grudges then did he have set targets? Or is that a thing?

 

[Barrett]

Since few schools are willing to arm teachers, and few other outlets, the only recourse in such atrocities is to rush the gunman. It happens very seldom but when tried it nearly always works. (Most recent international example I recall is the French/Belgian train.) That's because mass killers are essentially cowards who do not expect to meet resistance. (One news account said the NZ killer retreated when someone threw a credit card processor at him.) OTOH, here in Arizona there's a growing business for training church-goers in concealed firearms carry. It could/should apply to all faiths. Obviously that won't happen in NZ or Oz or most other places so, as always, you're on your own. My police friends repeat: "When seconds count, we're only minutes away."

 

[swampyankee]

Terrorists

Since few schools are willing to arm teachers, and few other outlets, the only recourse in such atrocities is to rush the gunman. It happens very seldom but when tried it nearly always works. (Most recent international example I recall is the French/Belgian train.) That's because mass killers are essentially cowards who do not expect to meet resistance. (One news account said the NZ killer retreated when someone threw a credit card processor at him.) OTOH, here in Arizona there's a growing business for training church-goers in concealed firearms carry. It could/should apply to all faiths. Obviously that won't happen in NZ or Oz or most other places so, as always, you're on your own. My police friends repeat: "When seconds count, we're only minutes away."

I don't want to get into the politics of arming teachers, but I have one question: if the police see an armed stranger in a highly dangerous situation would they check his id?

 

[vikingBerserker]

After he is either disarmed or shot.

At my Church we had the police come in with a presentation as we use concealed permit holders for extra security. What we were told if you have to pull your weapon and the police arrive you better drop the gun and assume the position as they have no idea if your a good guy or bad and things might not go well for you.

 

[mikewint]

What is with killing children this Unruh fellow? Cos they won't have upset him?
Coz if he was shooting for grudges then did he have set targets? Or is that a thing?

Unruh had been contemplating killing several of his Cramer Hill neighbors over petty squabbles, perceived slights and name-calling, all which fed into his psychosis. Early that morning when he arrived home he found that the newly constructed fence at the rear end of his backyard (He had erected the fence to quell an ongoing feud with the Cohens who lived next door and owned the drugstore below the apartment he shared with his mother) had been tampered with. The gate was missing.
Such everyday ordinary happenings, in his mind, became acts of aggression that demanded retribution. And so, he began to keep thorough lists of his grievances and slights, both real and imagined. In the 1949 commitment report, Unruh claimed Mr. Cohen short-changed him five times while Mrs. Cohen told him to turn down his music (Brahms and Wagner, no Hip-Hop or Acid/Punk rock…yet) even though their son Charles was free to aggravate him with his trumpet.
Other neighbors on Unruh's list included: The man and woman who lived below him and threw trash on his back lot, the barber who put dirt in a vacant yard that backed up the drainage and flooded his cellar, the shoemaker who buried trash close to his property, and a mystery boy (mayhap why he had shot children) named "Sorg," who tapped his electricity to light up the Christmas trees he was selling on the street.

 

[Zipper730]

Back in the early 90's, I seriously considered going into forensics or profiling and have been an avid reader/viewer since, so I totally hear you.

Yeah, it's fascinating -- fucked up -- but fascinating as hell

 

[parsifal]

After he is either disarmed or shot.

At my Church we had the police come in with a presentation as we use concealed permit holders for extra security. What we were told if you have to pull your weapon and the police arrive you better drop the gun and assume the position as they have no idea if your a good guy or bad and things might not go well for you.

 

[parsifal]

I recently read an American author who wrote....it's not that we need to learn to agree. It's that we need to learn to disagree

 

[Lawrence Marsh]

From February through mid-March, as many as 280 people in Christian communities in northern and middle Nigeria were killed in attacks. No mention of this here.
I am not condoning what happened in N.Z. BUT I do believe that, if this platform is going to be used as a way of spreading news regarding terrorist attacks, then ALL terroist attacks should be reported not a one-sided report.

 

[Lawrence Marsh]

Erdogan says attackers targeting Turkey will go home 'in caskets' | Reuters
Why was this not shown here?

 

[wingnuts]

 

[Lawrence Marsh]

I am left wanting to cry. Nothing more.

I served 16 years in the US Army, ready to give everything at the slightest notice, during that time. In the end I only quit because I couldn't do the job of an Infantry NCO any more so I walked away with my Honorable discharge. This evil SOB is everything I have fought against my entire life. I still stand ready in my oath to the US Constitution to defend it against all enemies, foreign and domestic, with no regard for myself. If I see these right wing scum here, I will go down fighting.

Some times it is really that simple. The fascists must be stopped for freedom to survive. If that costs us our lives, so what? Our grandchildren's lives depend on us stomping these scum into the ground, just as we did in 1945. We must fight for freedom for everyone one who is H. Sapiens Sapiens.

Yeah, it really is that simple.

Which imaginary battles did you fight? You have Democrats, Soros the rightwing fascist scum, the enemies of the US constitution in the Senate itself. why are you not fighting them/ they are real, not imaginations like your battles!

 

[Torch]

Which imaginary battles did you fight? You have Democrats, Soros the rightwing fascist scum, the enemies of the US constitution in the Senate itself. why are you not fighting them/ they are real, not imaginations like your battles!

Your going to get these posts squashed if you make it political..........

 

[Lawrence Marsh]

Your going to get these posts squashed if you make it political..........

Just the plain truth, or is it not permissible?