The B-17 Flying Fortress Was The Most Overrated Bomber Of World War 2

[33k in the air]

I guess much was spent putting stuff into the B-32 and then taking it out.

It was ordered as a backup to the B-29, but its development was slow. The high-altitude pressurized cabin was eventually dispensed with, remote-controlled turrets replaced with simpler manned ones, and a twin tail changed to a single tail.

The B-29 prototype first flew on 21 Sept. 1942, and its combat debut was on 5 June 1944, which is 20½ months later. The B-32 prototype first flew on 7 Sept. 1942, while its combat debut took place on 29 May 1945, which is over 32 months later.

 

[ThomasP]

Here are 2 official write-ups of the B-17 vs B-24 that I think speak toward the qualities of the respective aircraft.

The first one addresses vulnerability - note that it was kept secret during the war. The other one addresses the myth of the superior performance of the B-24, and is available on the "http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/B-17/B-17E_B-24D_Comparison.pdf" website.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Aircraft Unit costs, US Archives Record Group 18 Entry 10 Box 68. GFE = Government Furnished Equipment. In August and November 1944 there were 713 B-32 on order from Fort Worth and 500 from San Diego, 1 B-32 accepted in September and 1 in November. In August all 4 B-29 lines were delivering aircraft against approved formal contracts for 5,800.

B-17	Airframe	Engines	Propellers	GFE	Ordnance	Comms	Total	Notes
28-Feb-43​	$ 111,443	$ 34,287	$ 3,400	$ 45,606	$ 4,595	$ 9,040	$ 208,371	Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
31-Jul-44​	$ 157,484	$ 37,480	$ 11,755	$ 48,939	$ 5,999	$ 10,305	$ 271,962	Costs are weighted average of all Army contracts from 1939 to date
31-Aug-44​	$ 129,150	$ 35,521	$ 11,247	$ 47,425	$ 5,966	$ 9,040	$ 238,349	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
30-Nov-44​	$ 125,464	$ 34,875	$ 6,487	$ 46,413	$ 5,686	$ 9,040	$ 227,965	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
B-24	Airframe	Engines	Propellers	GFE	Ordnance	Comms	Total	Notes
28-Feb-43​	$ 115,338	$ 32,659	$ 4,220	$ 49,781	$ 3,205	$ 8,474	$ 213,677	Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
31-Jul-44​	$ 169,452	$ 36,539	$ 12,899	$ 49,034	$ 4,726	$ 9,752	$ 282,402	Costs are weighted average of all Army contracts from 1939 to date
31-Aug-44​	$ 138,585	$ 33,363	$ 13,004	$ 47,956	$ 4,520	$ 8,474	$ 245,902	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
30-Nov-44​	$ 114,951	$ 34,497	$ 8,663	$ 48,288	$ 4,505	$ 8,474	$ 219,378	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
B-29	Airframe	Engines	Propellers	GFE	Ordnance	Comms	Total	Notes
28-Feb-43​	$ 362,347	$ 101,685	$ 10,328	$ 125,341	$ 4,836	$ 34,738	$ 639,275	Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
31-Jul-44​	$ 478,180	$ 100,406	$ 12,181	$ 125,919	$ 5,525	$ 34,738	$ 756,949	Costs are weighted average of all Army contracts from 1939 to date
31-Aug-44​	$ 469,269	$ 100,406	$ 12,433	$ 125,863	$ 5,526	$ 34,738	$ 748,235	Airframe and engine costs subject to revision. Costs based on uncompleted contracts
30-Nov-44​	$ 434,512	$ 101,877	$ 13,628	$ 124,787	$ 5,531	$ 34,738	$ 715,073	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
B-32	Airframe	Engines	Propellers	GFE	Ordnance	Comms	Total	Notes
28-Feb-43​	$ 522,613	$ 101,685	$ 23,310	$ 68,947	$ 3,247	$ 34,150	$ 753,952	Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
31-Jul-44​	$ 540,305	$ 100,406	$ 18,000	$ 68,734	$ 4,624	$ 34,150	$ 766,219	Costs are weighted average of all Army contracts from 1939 to date
31-Aug-44​	$ 522,661	$ 100,406	$ 20,841	$ 66,491	$ 4,624	$ 34,150	$ 749,173	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
30-Nov-44​	$ 522,816	$ 101,877	$ 24,892	$ 71,208	$ 4,624	$ 34,150	$ 759,567	Costs based on uncompleted contracts
P-61	Airframe	Engines	Propellers	GFE	Ordnance	Comms	Total	Notes
28-Feb-43​	$ 154,899	$ 44,714	$ 6,352	$ 14,507	$ 4,684	$ 19,758	$ 244,914	Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
31-Jul-44​	$ 191,831	$ 49,392	$ 11,841	$ 18,144	$ 6,308	$ 19,918	$ 297,434	Costs are weighted average of all Army contracts from 1939 to date
30-Nov-44​	$ 147,960	$ 44,729	$ 9,720	$ 17,611	$ 6,245	$ 19,758	$ 246,023	Costs based on uncompleted contracts

Showing the problems of knowing how much a warplane actually cost. Influenced by things like how many guns and electronics it carried and how bleeding edge its engines were. In late 1944 the big B-24 builder was Ford, with its much more tooled up line.

 

[Greg Boeser]

I hate when people try to muddy a good argument with facts.

 

[tomo pauk]

Preach on, brother Greg.

 

[33k in the air]

Aircraft Unit costs, US Archives Record Group 18 Entry 10 Box 68. GFE = Government Furnished Equipment. In August and November 1944 there were 713 B-32 on order from Fort Worth and 500 from San Diego, 1 B-32 accepted in September and 1 in November. In August all 4 B-29 lines were delivering aircraft against approved formal contracts for 5,800.

Can we see the data for the fighters as well? It makes for interesting comparisons to the Statistical Digest figures, as different accounting methods arrive at different values, although they are generally similar.

 

[pbehn]

So I'm guessing the answer to the OP is no.

The OP makes a statement, to prove the statement it does a comprehensive survey of all other WW2 bombers (B-24 and Mosquito) and concludes that the B-17 was trash compared to the magnificent B-24. To me it is just tabloid fan boy nonsense.

 

[SaparotRob]

The P-47 could have replaced all of them.

 

[pbehn]

The P-47 could have replaced all of them.

It would have if Hap Arnold hadnt written that memo in April 1939.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The P-39 could have replaced all of them.

Fixed for accuracy.

 

[Greg Boeser]

 

[pbehn]

Fixed for accuracy.

Well the Russians were so happy with P-39s they never asked for any B-17s

 

[BiffF15]

The P39 has gained immortality on here!

 

[pbehn]

The P39 has gained immortality on here!

When you start life known as a Caribou, it is uphill all the way, but it has eventually managed it.

 

[syscom3]

P-38 was not in service when the war started.

For the US, the war started on Dec 7, 1941. And the P38 was in use on that date.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The various 1940's USAAF cost calculations I have access to. Corrections and extensions welcome.

 

[NTGray]

Good discussion, but nobody has yet mentioned the TV show "12 O'Clock High" or the earlier movie of the same name, which featured B-17s. The TV show in particular probably did a lot to boost the reputation of the Fortress. (It did for me, anyway; I watched it faithfully and thought the bombers were super cool.) But did this cause the B-17 to be over-rated? I don't really think so. The reputation seems fair to me.

 

[SaparotRob]

There must be many reasons why the B-17 got so much good press. All the advertising prowess in the world wouldn't be able to "pump up" a plane like the Lerwick or Me-210.

I used to watch 12 O'Clock High with my dad when I was a kid. Some of my most cherished memories. FLBOYJ and I hijacked a thread about B-17 nose art discussing "Angel Babe" and my first love, the Piccadilly Lilly. To my joy, through The Forum, I found out Piccadilly Lilly lives. She's at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California.

 

[Frog]

Well the Russians were so happy with P-39s they never asked for any B-17s

And they got B-29s samples for free to retro engineer the Tu-4.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

There must be many reasons why the B-17 got so much good press. All the advertising prowess in the world wouldn't be able to "pump up" a plane like the Lerwick or Me-210.

I used to watch 12 O'Clock High with my dad when I was a kid. Some of my most cherished memories. FLBOYJ and I hijacked a thread about B-17 nose art discussing "Angel Babe" and my first love, the Piccadilly Lilly. To my joy, through The Forum, I found out Piccadilly Lilly lives. She's at the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California.

I'm biased. My gramps flew and died in one.