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RG_Lunatic said:KraziKanuK said:Those numbers (Me262) are for fully finished a/c delivered from the factories.
I don't know where you got the 300 number from but almost 800 were with JV 44, JG 7, KG51 and KG(J)54.
That only about 300 Me262's of all flavors saw combat operations in WWII is a well established number. Something around 2300 werknumbers were allocated, most of which involved an airframe being at least partially constructed. About 1500 airframes were completed, to varying degrees, many missing critical components which were to be delivered in the field (such as engines). Of these 1500, I don't know exactly how many ever saw engines, but a large number of those that did suffered engine failures prior to or upon their first flight.
If you go through the werknumber database I gave the link for, you can see the details on all 262's which were actually delivered, and its fate. Unfortunately, it does not always indicate if the plane flew combat or not. But, it is apparent that the units were normally delivered to the JG's and they conducted the first flight - many of them indicate loss due to engine failure on test flight.
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Lunatic
Over 1,400 Me-262s were built, but only a relatively small portion of them ever saw action. Fuel was scarce, and Allied aircraft strafed and bombed at will. It appears that the Luftwaffe never had more than 200 on strength at any one time. The Me-262 shot down about 150 Allied aircraft, versus the loss of 100 Me-262s in action, an uninspiring war record.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avme262.html#m2
Although little more than 500 Me 262s had been produced by December 1944, by the end of the war the total had risen to about 1.430. Probably less than a quarter of these saw frontline service, and losses among them were quite heavy, even though relatively few losses were realised in combat. Despite this, their destruction of Allied bombers and fighters was greater than one for one, and JV 44, the top-scoring Me 262 interceptor unit, achieved some 50 kills' in little more than a month's operations in 1945. In air-to-air combat the Me 262 never engaged its British counterpart, the twin-jet Gloster Meteor (which was slower and less well armed); conversely, many Me 262s were destroyed by Allied Mustang, Spitfire, Tempest and Thunderbolt piston-engined fighters.
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Messerschmitt-Me262/me262_info/m262_info.htm
RG_Lunatic said:If there were soooo many Anton's and Doras flying, how did the allied bombers manage to wipe out German oil production in the Spring of 1944? If the Luftwaffe' didn't get its ass kicked in Spring 1944, where were they on D-Day?
It doesn't make any sense.
RG_Lunatic said:KraziKanuK said:Those numbers (Me262) are for fully finished a/c delivered from the factories.
I don't know where you got the 300 number from but almost 800 were with JV 44, JG 7, KG51 and KG(J)54.
That only about 300 Me262's of all flavors saw combat operations in WWII is a well established number. Something around 2300 werknumbers were allocated, most of which involved an airframe being at least partially constructed. About 1500 airframes were completed, to varying degrees, many missing critical components which were to be delivered in the field (such as engines). Of these 1500, I don't know exactly how many ever saw engines, but a large number of those that did suffered engine failures prior to or upon their first flight.
If you go through the werknumber database I gave the link for, you can see the details on all 262's which were actually delivered, and its fate. Unfortunately, it does not always indicate if the plane flew combat or not. But, it is apparent that the units were normally delivered to the JG's and they conducted the first flight - many of them indicate loss due to engine failure on test flight.
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Lunatic
Zamex said:Here are the production nubmers of Fw 190. Numbers in italics are estimated. All other data according to FW factory production book:
KraziKanuK said:RG_Lunatic said:KraziKanuK said:Those numbers (Me262) are for fully finished a/c delivered from the factories.
I don't know where you got the 300 number from but almost 800 were with JV 44, JG 7, KG51 and KG(J)54.
That only about 300 Me262's of all flavors saw combat operations in WWII is a well established number. Something around 2300 werknumbers were allocated, most of which involved an airframe being at least partially constructed. About 1500 airframes were completed, to varying degrees, many missing critical components which were to be delivered in the field (such as engines). Of these 1500, I don't know exactly how many ever saw engines, but a large number of those that did suffered engine failures prior to or upon their first flight.
If you go through the werknumber database I gave the link for, you can see the details on all 262's which were actually delivered, and its fate. Unfortunately, it does not always indicate if the plane flew combat or not. But, it is apparent that the units were normally delivered to the JG's and they conducted the first flight - many of them indicate loss due to engine failure on test flight.
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Lunatic
Since no P-80 or P-51H saw combat we can write them off as someones vivid imagination.
Every 262 was test flown before delivery to a combat unit. They were also flown to the combat units.
I did go through the link, which I knew of a long time ago. Do a search by 'unit' and see what turns up. Seems someone has a double standard.
I don't know why you keep mentioning WNr?
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:Well over 1400 were fully completed but very few saw service probably around 300.
Over 1,400 Me-262s were built, but only a relatively small portion of them ever saw action. Fuel was scarce, and Allied aircraft strafed and bombed at will. It appears that the Luftwaffe never had more than 200 on strength at any one time. The Me-262 shot down about 150 Allied aircraft, versus the loss of 100 Me-262s in action, an uninspiring war record.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avme262.html#m2
Although little more than 500 Me 262s had been produced by December 1944, by the end of the war the total had risen to about 1.430. Probably less than a quarter of these saw frontline service, and losses among them were quite heavy, even though relatively few losses were realised in combat. Despite this, their destruction of Allied bombers and fighters was greater than one for one, and JV 44, the top-scoring Me 262 interceptor unit, achieved some 50 kills' in little more than a month's operations in 1945. In air-to-air combat the Me 262 never engaged its British counterpart, the twin-jet Gloster Meteor (which was slower and less well armed); conversely, many Me 262s were destroyed by Allied Mustang, Spitfire, Tempest and Thunderbolt piston-engined fighters.
http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/AC/aircraft/Messerschmitt-Me262/me262_info/m262_info.htm
Are these eneough sources for you or are you not going to believe it either because it goes against what you are saying here?
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:RG_Lunatic said:If there were soooo many Anton's and Doras flying, how did the allied bombers manage to wipe out German oil production in the Spring of 1944? If the Luftwaffe' didn't get its ass kicked in Spring 1944, where were they on D-Day?
It doesn't make any sense.
On D-Day there were 2 sorties flown but the rest of the pilots in the area believe it or not were on furlow back in Germany. I am surprised you had not read this before RG.
Erich said:second the oil production facilities were not smashed in the spring of 1944 but by winter of 44-45. My cousin was KIA on 26 November 44 in one of the crucial battles over the Misburg manufacturing plants which was going storng and had been rebuilt numerous times and even after this November incident though production was severly reduced after this particular raid
RG_Lunatic said:DerAdlerIstGelandet said:RG_Lunatic said:If there were soooo many Anton's and Doras flying, how did the allied bombers manage to wipe out German oil production in the Spring of 1944? If the Luftwaffe' didn't get its ass kicked in Spring 1944, where were they on D-Day?
It doesn't make any sense.
On D-Day there were 2 sorties flown but the rest of the pilots in the area believe it or not were on furlow back in Germany. I am surprised you had not read this before RG.
You mean they sent all the thousands of pilots in the area of on Furlow right at the time they were expecting an invasion? Do you really believe that?
RG_Lunatic said:You mean they sent all the thousands of pilots in the area of on Furlow right at the time they were expecting an invasion? Do you really believe that?
RG_Lunatic said:These figures basically agree with what I'm saying, only about 300 or so Me262's saw action in WWII.
RG_Lunatic said:You mean they sent all the thousands of pilots in the area of on Furlow right at the time they were expecting an invasion? Do you really believe that?
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:RG_Lunatic said:These figures basically agree with what I'm saying, only about 300 or so Me262's saw action in WWII.
And no one here was contesting that. We were contesting that more then 300 were built. Nobody ever said that more then 300 saw service.
[/quote]DerAdlerIstGelandet said:RG_Lunatic said:You mean they sent all the thousands of pilots in the area of on Furlow right at the time they were expecting an invasion? Do you really believe that?
Whoever said that there were thousands of pilots in the area?
RG_Lunatic said:Well, if you look at German fighter production from Nov. 1943 to Apr. 1944, there should have been well over 10,000 new fighter planes available. If the Luftwaffe' was not suffering heavy losses of planes and pilots during this period - where were they on D-Day?
RG_Lunatic said:Fuel shortages would not have really started for aircraft bases until mid-summer or so. The strategic fuel resources were not specifically targeted in a big way until after D-Day. Tactical fuel resources were targeted, but again, why wasn't the Luftwaffe' defending those?