lesofprimus
Brigadier General
So, what would the Luftwaffe have been like if Hermann Goering died during World War 1??? Would things have worked out differently???
The Luftwaffe if Goering Died in WW1...
- Thread starter lesofprimus
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
Probably not much would be different.
Hitler wanted lackeys in high places and micro manage where he wanted too.
Hitler wanted lackeys in high places and micro manage where he wanted too.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Udet had a better grip on things , he wanted change and believe he was trying to get a strategic component to the LW
If Udet had been in charge I think the Luftwaffe would have been better. There might not have been the stupid requirements such as the He 177 having to be Dive Bomber Capable.
Udet also I believe might have gotten a Strategic Heavy Bomber program going sooner and maybe the Jets would have gone into service sooner.
Overall I dont think the conclusion would have changed. The Luftwaffe would not have been able to fight off all the allies and neither could the ground forces.
What would really interest me would be how the Battle of Britain would have played out. Any ideas?
Udet also I believe might have gotten a Strategic Heavy Bomber program going sooner and maybe the Jets would have gone into service sooner.
Overall I dont think the conclusion would have changed. The Luftwaffe would not have been able to fight off all the allies and neither could the ground forces.
What would really interest me would be how the Battle of Britain would have played out. Any ideas?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
How about Walther Wever fulfilling the role that Goering took had he not died in 1936?
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Forgot about Wever
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Say Wever lived and fulfilled Goering's role the Luftwaffe might of had long range 4 engine bombers in quantity.
Interesting question, Im not sure how to answer that one. Herman Goring had some good ideas and some bad ones. I think that at the wars end he was hooked on morophine which could have clouded his judgement due to an accident prior to the war if I remember right.
Udet commited suicide during the war which shows that he was as unstable as the rest but he did have some good idea's also.
In the end I dont think either one would change the out come of the war but it would be interesting of you could some how play out both scenery's without the loss of life.
Udet commited suicide during the war which shows that he was as unstable as the rest but he did have some good idea's also.
In the end I dont think either one would change the out come of the war but it would be interesting of you could some how play out both scenery's without the loss of life.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Goering was Hitlers successor and in charge of economics
He had unlimited political and financial power to build up the Luftwaffe.
No other man could have done that and certainly no viable alternative could have had the driving force Goring had.
He had unlimited political and financial power to build up the Luftwaffe.
No other man could have done that and certainly no viable alternative could have had the driving force Goring had.
No actually he was not. He sent a letter to Hitler proposing himself as the successor and Hitler found this to be disloyal.
On April 25, 1945 Hitler had Goering arrested by Bernhard Frank. Hitler had Goering expelled from the Nazi Party and removed him from all offices and titles that he held.
Hitler even gave orders to have Goering wife and daughter killed but Frank regected the order and they all retreated to a castle.
On April 26, 1945 Hitler even officially removed him as Head of the Luftwaffe.
Nice to play with thoughts and ideas in this regard...
Had Göring died before WW2 chances are things could have fared somewhat better for the Luftwaffe. How come? Well, someone with a different personality and character could have held the position Göring did for WW2. I would not dare calling Göring "Hitler´s Lackey"...it gets boring when we are told it was only in Nazy Germany where the leader was surrounded by lackeys whose primary function was to protect and boost the ego of a lunatic erratic leader.
Göring was a very clever man, but his early succeses as head of the Luftwaffe lead him astray to a life of pleasure that made him lose contact with reality. Not that he would not issue opinions contradicting Hitler´s ideas, rather he became to lazy and unattached he did not seem to care all that much about anything.
What about General Wolfram von Richtofen? Repeat, what if General Wolfram von Richtofen had been at the leadership of the Luftwaffe from the outset?
In my view he is the epitome, the quintessential air force commander. Not only was von Richtofen a man with an intelligence out of the ordinary: he was utterly thorough when commanding his aerial force at the fronts. He always had a completely clear image of what was going in the front areas where he was operating. General Richtofen did not believe in "nasty surprises"; he was always one step ahead surprises; his forces would always perform thorough screenings of the enemy´s move, and not just that, he himself would fly his Fiesseler Torch plane in the area of operations.
I do not think any other top ranking officer of either RAF or USAAF can come close to match the style of this man.
He was the very first high ranking official that pointed out supplying the cut off 6th Army at Stalingrad from the air belonged in the realm of fantasy.
Also, he was one of the very first officials in the armed forces to send Berlin prompt and timely reports on the assembly of Red Army forces northwest of Stalingrad during October/November 1942...the "black clouds" in the horizon that in the end would storm the sectors guarded by ill-equipped Romanians and other axis minors having the 6th Army trapped as a result.
It should be interesting to know that the very first German armed forces which engaged and attacked the Red Army forces assemblying for the winter offensive which would encircle the 6th Army were precisely the Stukas of von Richtofen. -In one of those incidents, the Stukas of Richtofen nearly killed political agitator and supreme war criminal Nikita Krushchev who was paying a visit to the tank forces assembly in the area-.
Had his reports and warnings been accepted by Hitler chances are Stalingrad would have had a very different end.
It would have been interesting to see Richtofen commanding the Luftwaffe during 1944 against the onslaught of the USAAF. From this scenario i´d expect at minimum a much wiser use of Luftwaffe resources. Too bad he was already retired due to health issues during 1944.
Had Göring died before WW2 chances are things could have fared somewhat better for the Luftwaffe. How come? Well, someone with a different personality and character could have held the position Göring did for WW2. I would not dare calling Göring "Hitler´s Lackey"...it gets boring when we are told it was only in Nazy Germany where the leader was surrounded by lackeys whose primary function was to protect and boost the ego of a lunatic erratic leader.
Göring was a very clever man, but his early succeses as head of the Luftwaffe lead him astray to a life of pleasure that made him lose contact with reality. Not that he would not issue opinions contradicting Hitler´s ideas, rather he became to lazy and unattached he did not seem to care all that much about anything.
What about General Wolfram von Richtofen? Repeat, what if General Wolfram von Richtofen had been at the leadership of the Luftwaffe from the outset?
In my view he is the epitome, the quintessential air force commander. Not only was von Richtofen a man with an intelligence out of the ordinary: he was utterly thorough when commanding his aerial force at the fronts. He always had a completely clear image of what was going in the front areas where he was operating. General Richtofen did not believe in "nasty surprises"; he was always one step ahead surprises; his forces would always perform thorough screenings of the enemy´s move, and not just that, he himself would fly his Fiesseler Torch plane in the area of operations.
I do not think any other top ranking officer of either RAF or USAAF can come close to match the style of this man.
He was the very first high ranking official that pointed out supplying the cut off 6th Army at Stalingrad from the air belonged in the realm of fantasy.
Also, he was one of the very first officials in the armed forces to send Berlin prompt and timely reports on the assembly of Red Army forces northwest of Stalingrad during October/November 1942...the "black clouds" in the horizon that in the end would storm the sectors guarded by ill-equipped Romanians and other axis minors having the 6th Army trapped as a result.
It should be interesting to know that the very first German armed forces which engaged and attacked the Red Army forces assemblying for the winter offensive which would encircle the 6th Army were precisely the Stukas of von Richtofen. -In one of those incidents, the Stukas of Richtofen nearly killed political agitator and supreme war criminal Nikita Krushchev who was paying a visit to the tank forces assembly in the area-.
Had his reports and warnings been accepted by Hitler chances are Stalingrad would have had a very different end.
It would have been interesting to see Richtofen commanding the Luftwaffe during 1944 against the onslaught of the USAAF. From this scenario i´d expect at minimum a much wiser use of Luftwaffe resources. Too bad he was already retired due to health issues during 1944.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Arnold was among the greatest generals of the air war. Chenault and Kenny were also two extremely capable generals that operated in the frame of reference that youre reffering too.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Udet, I agree 100% about Richthofen.
Freebird
Master Sergeant
The Battle of Britain was a whole new type of war that had never occured before. Goering was not the "goat" on this battle that many make him out to be. Remember that the key air fleet "Luftflotte 2" (HQ Brussels) was commanded by Kesselring, one of the most capable LW generals. The order to begin bombing London was given by Hitler himself, (Sept 7) the beginning of the "Blitz" which ended any chance of the Germans knocking out the SE British airfields (key to any successful attempt at Sealion)
However, the Germans had hoped that the devastation in London would force the British to negotiate peace. This was not as unreasonable as it sounds today, as the Germans had just defeated the French nation, who collapsed astoundingly quickly .
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
oops...Goering was Hitlers intended successor...with Hess third. I will find the Hitler decree when I finish work.
Slip of the keyboard.
Slip of the keyboard.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Goering got punished by Hitler in 1945 as badly as Herring did in "The Great Dictator."
And I thought that was comedy.
I had never heard of General Wolfram von Richtofen, but it sounds like he was very good.
And I thought that was comedy.
I had never heard of General Wolfram von Richtofen, but it sounds like he was very good.
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
??? Udet was basically the Luftwaffe`s greatest 'fan' of dive bombers (which wasn`t a bad idea at all, it gave the LW it`s most iconic, and very successfull Ju 87 I might add), an idea he embraced after a visit to the US. So overall I believe with Udet at the steering wheel, such operational requirements would only receive encouregment from the high brass.
I agree. Basically what the Germans would need is a good deal of foresight and predict what was coming to them in 1944 (easy to say..); perhaps if they`d gave high priority for fighter production and prepeare for stragetic air defense in early 1943, thing would have been somewhat different in the air. But the war was lost on the ground, not in the air.
I don`t think it would be that much different. The driving idea behind medium bomber programs in the 1930s was the realisation that a large medium bomber fleet can be built up more quickly and in sufficient numbers from scratch. If two medium bombers, which could carry half the bombload could be built for the time/materials (or even less) than required for for one heavy bomber, than it was a reasonable and logical choice, and it gave the Third Reich`s leaders a potent deterrent force in their political manouvers. In the end it resulted in the LW having the most potent bomber force in the world by the start of the war, so I think the decision was right. It would have not made things much different if the LW would send 300 heavy bombers over England with 6 tons of bombs on each than if it would send 900 medium bombers with 2 tons of bomb on each - except that mass attacks are always more difficult to repell than attacks of small formations. The advantage of the heavy bomber is not that it carries more bombs (given cost-effectiveness, the 2-3 mediums built for the same money will do the same), but that it could carry a reasonable bombload to longer distances. Distance was, however, not a factor in 1940 for the Germans, and, if I may add, no airforce in the world had a meaningful force of heavy bombers in 1939/40. The RAF`s BC for example was largely made up by a light Blenheims and medium Wellingtons and Hampdens. The Russians maybe had a couple of Pe-8s by that time?, and the B-17 was originally a long range maritime medium bomber. Heavy bombers were few and far between.
Their heavy bomber program developments started in due time, but the He 177 was a technically too ambitious and advanced project, that took a more time to be perfected than a more conventional design; the LW weren`t as hard pressed for a heavy bomber as the Western Allies, either, who were motivated by the need for a tool that could deliver sufficient tools from British bases to Germany, ie. considerably longer distances than the LW`s operational targets in the East, Africa or the West, all of which lay in easily reachable distances for medium bombers. In the end, the reason that killed the German heavy bomber project just as it started to kick in by early 1944 when meaningful numbers of 177s appeared in service, were not directly rooted in the LW`s decisions, but the changing favours of fortune in the air war : massive Allied fleets attacking the Reich called for fighters, not bombers. This fate of the He 177 was shared by all German bombers.
Göring didn`t pull too much strings after the war started; the actual work was done by his rather capble subordinates like Milch, Saur and the various Generals of the bombers/fighters etc. Initially, Göring`s politcal influence was certainly very useful for the LW getting as much resources as it did, of all the Army, Navy and Air Force, it was the latter that was in the best shape as the war started.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Kurfurst, you beat me to it. Udet was the reason that Germany was fixated on dive-bombing.
How about this? Goering dead. Udet pushing his Dive-bomber and Wever pushing for 4 engine (I'll say "Ural Bomber") aircraft. What direction would Germany have gone with those 2 opposing sides?
and for Soundbreaker...
Dr. Ing. Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen
GenMaj 1.11.38,
General der Flieger 19.7.40,
GenOb 1.2.42,
Generalfeldmarschall 16.2.43
1.4.38 - 31.10.38 Kommandeur KG257
1.11.38 - 18.7.39 Befehlshaber des Führungsstabes der Legion-Condor
19.7.39 - 2.10.39 Kommandeur Fliegerführer z.b.V.
3.10.39 - 30.6.42 Kommandeur VIII. Fliegerkorps
4.7.42 - 6.43 Oberbefehlshaber Luftflotte 4*
26.6.43 - 27.10.44 Oberbefehlshaber Luftflotte 2**
28.11.44 - 12.7.45 Führerreserve OKL and US P.O.W.
* also Befehlshaber Südost
** was in the unusual position of being in command of two Luftflotten at the same time.
On sickleave 27.10.44 - 27.11.44
The Luftwaffe, 1933-45
How about this? Goering dead. Udet pushing his Dive-bomber and Wever pushing for 4 engine (I'll say "Ural Bomber") aircraft. What direction would Germany have gone with those 2 opposing sides?
and for Soundbreaker...
Dr. Ing. Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen
GenMaj 1.11.38,
General der Flieger 19.7.40,
GenOb 1.2.42,
Generalfeldmarschall 16.2.43
1.4.38 - 31.10.38 Kommandeur KG257
1.11.38 - 18.7.39 Befehlshaber des Führungsstabes der Legion-Condor
19.7.39 - 2.10.39 Kommandeur Fliegerführer z.b.V.
3.10.39 - 30.6.42 Kommandeur VIII. Fliegerkorps
4.7.42 - 6.43 Oberbefehlshaber Luftflotte 4*
26.6.43 - 27.10.44 Oberbefehlshaber Luftflotte 2**
28.11.44 - 12.7.45 Führerreserve OKL and US P.O.W.
* also Befehlshaber Südost
** was in the unusual position of being in command of two Luftflotten at the same time.
On sickleave 27.10.44 - 27.11.44
The Luftwaffe, 1933-45
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Udet only joined the Luftwaffe at Goerings insistence so without Goering then maybe no Udet.
The Luftwaffe was very good in 1940. But this was because of Goering and his considerable power.
Richtofen would be a good choice...especially with that name. But would he have the ear of Hitler and the power? Probably not.
Goering pushed the Luftwaffe in competition of funds against the army. He always had the final vote.
The Luftwaffe was very good in 1940. But this was because of Goering and his considerable power.
Richtofen would be a good choice...especially with that name. But would he have the ear of Hitler and the power? Probably not.
Goering pushed the Luftwaffe in competition of funds against the army. He always had the final vote.
You are absolutely correct, however I firmly believe that someone who might not have been such a lackey to Hitler might have tried to convince Hitler to do things differently.
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