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![[SC] Arachnicus](/forum/data/avatars/m/47/47793.jpg?1367517852){kind=avatar}
[SC] Arachnicus
Senior Airman
Nice, thanks. I use enamels.
Ugh. I'm not looking forward to this build I'm doing. (Airbrushing camo)
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Actually, I kind of agree that painting is the hardest part of the process - its very make or break... But also the point at which things come to life and (at least in the case Fw 190 D's and etc) the point where you can be most creative (ie, the research; which is typically made up on conflicting resources 
)...
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[SC] Arachnicus
Senior Airman
I cannot find the answer to this googling so I will ask you guys. Why did some of the German planes have a white swirl on the prop nose cover?
The spinner spiral was normally a feature only found on FRONT LINE units (ie, war fighting units)... Its main purpose seems to be to show that the a/c was from one of these operational units (and in fact in some cases, you can tell what Jagdgeschwader an a/c is from by the style of the spinner spiral), but also has the added benefit of being a visual indicator that the a/c prop is spinning (hence its use on modern a/c - turboprops on carriers and moste every turbofan I can think of), so when you're ground crew is running round in all the noise and dust and smoke, they can see that a prop is moving!
Additional stories Ive heard is that frm head on, it makes aiming at the a/c harder; but I dont really see how this works, as closing speeds wouldnt give you time to really be affected by this...
But yeah, in summary i) defines the a/c as being from an operational, front line unit and ii) provides a visual cue to the fact a big, head splitting lump of steel or timber is rotating in your vicinity!
Dan
Additional stories Ive heard is that frm head on, it makes aiming at the a/c harder; but I dont really see how this works, as closing speeds wouldnt give you time to really be affected by this...
But yeah, in summary i) defines the a/c as being from an operational, front line unit and ii) provides a visual cue to the fact a big, head splitting lump of steel or timber is rotating in your vicinity!
Dan
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- #68
[SC] Arachnicus
Senior Airman
"provides a visual cue to the fact a big, head splitting lump of steel or timber is rotating in your vicinity!"
Yep that sounds like a valid reason to me. I saw some prop noses that had a checker like pattern on the nose cover also.
When you Google image "Bf-109" you get a abundance of images of these planes and not one of them looks identical to the other. Did they hold plane painting contests? lol
Yep that sounds like a valid reason to me. I saw some prop noses that had a checker like pattern on the nose cover also.
When you Google image "Bf-109" you get a abundance of images of these planes and not one of them looks identical to the other. Did they hold plane painting contests? lol
Welcome to the joy of painting late WW2 Luftwaffe types - remember, during the second half of the war, a/c production was highly decentralised, with pre-fabricated components only really coming together for final construction. Sub-contractors would build and pre-paint whole sections of an a/c (power egg's, tails, fuselages, wing sets, etc) and once construction was complete a bit more paint would be applied to try and smooth things over. Then when the a/c arrived at its end-user unit, they would apply unit marking and add to the camoflage, depending upon the role and/or threat.
ie, a Bf 109 with a 'nachtjäger' rusatz would be camoflaged completely differently to a 'jabo' or 'jäger'; and then depending on the threat (ie air to air threats or airfield threats). a/c hidden in woods to guard against straffing attacks by allied fighters would be camoflaged differently than a/c that faced no real airfield threat - and all this was done at Jagdgeschwader and Staffel levels...
D
ie, a Bf 109 with a 'nachtjäger' rusatz would be camoflaged completely differently to a 'jabo' or 'jäger'; and then depending on the threat (ie air to air threats or airfield threats). a/c hidden in woods to guard against straffing attacks by allied fighters would be camoflaged differently than a/c that faced no real airfield threat - and all this was done at Jagdgeschwader and Staffel levels...
D
N4521U
Colonel
Did they use the spiral because they Didn't paint the prop tips?
mikewint
Captain
welcome to the ever practical military field operations, especially in the latter stages when everything was in short supply. You use what you have and/or can get without reguard to the niceties. Another reason why I cannot understand trying to exactly replicate color shades. Even at the factory level two batches of paint are not going to be exactly alike. Come into the store a year later and try to exactly match any color. We just purchased set of three rugs (sold individually but exact same pattern) only two exactly match, the third is just a bit off.
N4521U
Colonel
Kinda like two outa three kids!
Two seem to be okay, the third????? Ohhhh brother.
Two seem to be okay, the third????? Ohhhh brother.
Yeah, late WW2 luftwaffe colours vary GREATLY; its generally accepted that there's 3-4 tones of RLM76, plus the LATE War 'Sky Green', and 2-3 variations of RLM81, 82 and 83. Then there's the differences in batches, the fact those last three colours in particular wear very differently. My painting theory is more about 'tonal' difference than exact colour (of which ppl will never agree) - as long as the tonal qualities of the colours used are pretty close to that suggested by you're reference, you're in the clear!
And any judge that KNOCKS you for colour (especially if you're references are B&W or 60-70 year old colour photo's), claiming things like 'slighty too green' or 'youve used RLM82/83, where it should be 75/83' is kidding themselves! In the case of the Fw 190D, which has the incredible Japo and Crandall references, even those guys disagree and make a few blatant errors at times! Its all about YOUR interpretation of the references!
And any judge that KNOCKS you for colour (especially if you're references are B&W or 60-70 year old colour photo's), claiming things like 'slighty too green' or 'youve used RLM82/83, where it should be 75/83' is kidding themselves! In the case of the Fw 190D, which has the incredible Japo and Crandall references, even those guys disagree and make a few blatant errors at times! Its all about YOUR interpretation of the references!
A4K
Colonel
Yep, agree with Dan completely... at the end of the day, you think it looks right? Good, then leave it at that!
Re the Spiral Schnautzer, I've also read it was to make sighting harder for the attacking pilot. Don't know how true that is though.
Re the Spiral Schnautzer, I've also read it was to make sighting harder for the attacking pilot. Don't know how true that is though.
The white spiral on the spinner was a tactical marking. It was to aid in recognition of friendly aircraft.
It had nothing to do with throwing off an adversaries aim,neither was it a safety feature (like yellow propeller tips) on the ground.
It was first officially promulgated in an order of 12 Feb 1944.
"All fighter aircraft of Luftflotte 3 and Luftflotte Reich to have black and white spiral painted on spinner. One and a half spirals turning same direction as spinner,width one fifth of diametre of spinner"
There were spirals on spinners earlier,often in Staffel colours but these were down to individual units and were not an official tactical marking. The previous tactical marking had been the factory applied one third white segment of the spinner but this was deemed to have an unsatisfactory optical effect.
How quickly they were applied is debateable. There is an order was sent from Stab to II./JG 11 on 25 June 1944 (more than four months later!).
"with immiediate effect,aircraft to be marked only with spiral on propeller spinner,cross,tactical number and Gruppe mark"
But this might be in the context of removing other tactical markings.
On 14 July 1944 7 Jagd Division,referring to orders from Luftflotte Reich of 5 July 1944, noted.
"All fighter aircraft going to the West on operations to be provided only with black and white spirals on spinner.All other special identification markings to be discontinued."
Aircraft operating on the Eastern front carried different tactical markings to those in the West. The Eastern units were obviously expected to apply the Western tactical markings before the aircraft were transferred.
Not all spirals were applied to exactly conform to the order and many were very roughly applied. Many were also applied onto the dark green spinner (RLM 70) rather than being black and white. As Zaggy said when painting a late war Luftwaffe model it is important to find a decent reference.
Cheers
Steve
It had nothing to do with throwing off an adversaries aim,neither was it a safety feature (like yellow propeller tips) on the ground.
It was first officially promulgated in an order of 12 Feb 1944.
"All fighter aircraft of Luftflotte 3 and Luftflotte Reich to have black and white spiral painted on spinner. One and a half spirals turning same direction as spinner,width one fifth of diametre of spinner"
There were spirals on spinners earlier,often in Staffel colours but these were down to individual units and were not an official tactical marking. The previous tactical marking had been the factory applied one third white segment of the spinner but this was deemed to have an unsatisfactory optical effect.
How quickly they were applied is debateable. There is an order was sent from Stab to II./JG 11 on 25 June 1944 (more than four months later!).
"with immiediate effect,aircraft to be marked only with spiral on propeller spinner,cross,tactical number and Gruppe mark"
But this might be in the context of removing other tactical markings.
On 14 July 1944 7 Jagd Division,referring to orders from Luftflotte Reich of 5 July 1944, noted.
"All fighter aircraft going to the West on operations to be provided only with black and white spirals on spinner.All other special identification markings to be discontinued."
Aircraft operating on the Eastern front carried different tactical markings to those in the West. The Eastern units were obviously expected to apply the Western tactical markings before the aircraft were transferred.
Not all spirals were applied to exactly conform to the order and many were very roughly applied. Many were also applied onto the dark green spinner (RLM 70) rather than being black and white. As Zaggy said when painting a late war Luftwaffe model it is important to find a decent reference.
Cheers
Steve
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- #76
[SC] Arachnicus
Senior Airman
The first plane I ever built was a zero. Google zero colors and it's filled with sites of people debating what color was on what plane and what the color looked like. Not easy when you are just trying to get a definite answer. The a6m at the museum near me is tan. Perhaps a bit of green and/or grey in it but it is definitely tan.
RLM colours are quite consistent until the latter stages of the war. This is largely due to the fact that whichever contractor manufactured them,they were all using the original manufacturer's recipe. The original manufacturer of the Ikarol laquers was "Warnecke and Bohm". By 1942 no fewer than ten manufacturers,some whom had previously been competitors to W+B, were manufacturing aircraft laquers to W+B specifications for the RLM.
I'm sure there were minor variations between batches, inconsistencies in the colour of RLM 02 seems to have caused a flurry of paperwork at one point.
Later on shortages did cause changes. Jerry Crandall has identified two distinct versions of RLM 66 for example. A late war version,with far fewer ingredients has a more blue cast to it.
Zaggy has already mentioned RLM 76. There is at least a possibility that the greenish version,not a million miles away from the British Sky colour,is infact a new and undocumented colour.
This is interesting history but not to be taken too seriously when painting a model. There is no point in attempting to replicate one of these old,original,colours on a small piece of plastic. The originals can give an idea of what you are after but ultimately painting a model is an artistic rather than scientific undertaking.
Above all it should be fun!
Cheers
Steve
I'm sure there were minor variations between batches, inconsistencies in the colour of RLM 02 seems to have caused a flurry of paperwork at one point.
Later on shortages did cause changes. Jerry Crandall has identified two distinct versions of RLM 66 for example. A late war version,with far fewer ingredients has a more blue cast to it.
Zaggy has already mentioned RLM 76. There is at least a possibility that the greenish version,not a million miles away from the British Sky colour,is infact a new and undocumented colour.
This is interesting history but not to be taken too seriously when painting a model. There is no point in attempting to replicate one of these old,original,colours on a small piece of plastic. The originals can give an idea of what you are after but ultimately painting a model is an artistic rather than scientific undertaking.
Above all it should be fun!
Cheers
Steve
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- #78
[SC] Arachnicus
Senior Airman
Thanks steve that makes things a bit more easier for me.
Agree with Stona 100% - you're never going to get the colour 100% correct. Not only do we lack the means and the references to get these things perfect (even modern colours, like good old FS36118 Gunship Grey; look at the variations ON the a/c due to wear and batches and etc - then look at the variations in the hobby colours!), we then also have the 'scale effect' debate, the effect of your undercoat/primer, the effect of your clear coats, weathering, temperature (colour) of the light you're working under etc...
Just make sure the tonal differences in camo colours are about right and things look good to YOUR eye!
Dan
Just make sure the tonal differences in camo colours are about right and things look good to YOUR eye!
Dan
dneid
Staff Sergeant
Hey, All,
I completely agree with the practice theme here. I have been airbrushing for over 30 yrs and I still sc*#w things up. I spend a significant amount of time before I do any detail work on ANYTHING. For a model, I get a few sheets of thin sheet styrene and pencil in the outline of the fuse and practice with that, over and over and over and over and..... you get the idea. I hope to be finishing an ME-109E-4 soon with a mottled camo pattern on the fuse. As I get started on the painting, I'll post here. Heck, if you guys want, I'll post some of my practice tries as well.
Dale
PS, did I mention practice?
I completely agree with the practice theme here. I have been airbrushing for over 30 yrs and I still sc*#w things up. I spend a significant amount of time before I do any detail work on ANYTHING. For a model, I get a few sheets of thin sheet styrene and pencil in the outline of the fuse and practice with that, over and over and over and over and..... you get the idea. I hope to be finishing an ME-109E-4 soon with a mottled camo pattern on the fuse. As I get started on the painting, I'll post here. Heck, if you guys want, I'll post some of my practice tries as well.
Dale
PS, did I mention practice?
