Was the impending Pearl Harbor attack known in advance?

[syscom3]

Which probably would have cost USN a lot more in sunken ships which they couldn't salvage.... Coral Sea and Midway might have happened a lot later instead, right?

Coral Sea happened because of an impending invasion of Port Moresby. If the US took a couple of carrier casualties at Pearl, look for either the Coral Sea invasion to happen as planned, or no Doolittle raid on Japan.

If there was no Doolittle raid on japan, Midway might not have happened, and if it did, the US would only have a pair of carriers vs the Japanese 4 to 6.

 

[Lucky13]

If USN had taken carrier casualties at Pearl Harbor and be left with only two carriers and maybe less of other ships, could Japan have taken the chance and go for Port Moresby?

 

[syscom3]

If USN had taken carrier casualties at Pearl Harbor and be left with only two carriers and maybe less of other ships, could Japan have taken the chance and go for Port Moresby?

They did in May 1942. The question is if the USN was going to gamble with its remaning carriers and stop them. If so, you could say the battle would end up as planned, but the upcoming Midway battle would be two carriers instead of 3. And thats if the IJN decided to go for Midway, as there were plans to thrust SE into the Pacific towards Fiji and Samoa.

 

[Wildcat]

They did in May 1942.

The Coral sea defeat ultimately forced the Japanese to attempt a land invasion of port Moresby by coming over the Owen Stanley mountain range. This campaign kicked off in July '42 and although the Japanese came close to reaching Port Moresby (IIRC 30miles?) they were eventually driven back and defeated by Australian Infantry. Do a search for kokoda track for more info.
Meanwhile in August '42 the Japanese launched a seaborne invasion on the Eastern tip of NG at Milne Bay. Again the Australian's defeated the japanese who were forced to withdraw making this I believe the last attempt by the Japanese to capture Port Moresby.
A question I have, The RAAF had two P40 squadrons at Milne Bay that was instrumental in the defeat of the Japanese. Not only did they provide excellent close air support (I've read the Japanese could hardly move during the day) but they effectively destroyed all the Japanese landing barges which left the Japanese unable to "leap frog" along the coast therefore unable to out flank the Australians. The P40's also destroyed a bunch of barges that had just dropped off about 350 Japanese soldiers on Goodenough Is therefore trapping them there and unable to take part in the action.
Back to my question, the Australian's enjoyed air superiority over Milne Bay because the Japanese were at the time concentration on the Solomons, in fact only a reletively few raids were carried out against the Milne Bay defenders, had the Japanese concentrated their air assest on Milne Bay instead, I believe it is highly likey they would have gained the upper hand, would this in turn lead to a Japanese victory? If so would Port Moresby fall next?

 

[HealzDevo]

I could remember hearing that radio messages were intercepted from the Japanese Carrier Group but it was thought to be a bluff the idea of a Pearl Harbour attack. There were coded references to it, by John Curtin's friend in the Documentary on John Curtin so I am unsure whether this is true fact. The true facts though will never probably be known of how much the US knew or suspected of Japanese Intentions before Pearl Harbour...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I could remember hearing that radio messages were intercepted from the Japanese Carrier Group but it was thought to be a bluff the idea of a Pearl Harbour attack. There were coded references to it, by John Curtin's friend in the Documentary on John Curtin so I am unsure whether this is true fact. The true facts though will never probably be known of how much the US knew or suspected of Japanese Intentions before Pearl Harbour...

Radio messages? They were "radio silent" almost from the time they left Japan.

Another myth....

 

[syscom3]

Radio messages? They were "radio silent" almost from the time they left Japan.

Another myth....

There were no transmissions from the fleet due to the imperitive it had to achieve absolute surprise.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep...

 

[Lucky13]

Could things have been done differently?

 

[renrich]

If the Pacific fleet had tried to intercept Nagumo at sea prior to Pearl harbor I believe they would have lost Enterprise and Lexington and some BBs with maybe one IJN carrier being sunk. That would have meant no Doolittle raid. US would not have had carrier strength to oppose Port Moresby landing so Coral Sea is out and probably also Midway. War in Pacific would have lasted longer and been more costly. Even though atom bomb would not have been delayed, bases to launch B29s from would have taken longer to acquire.

 

[syscom3]

....War in Pacific would have lasted longer and been more costly. Even though atom bomb would not have been delayed, bases to launch B29s from would have taken longer to acquire.

I disagree.

In the summer of 1943, the USN was going to be etting a fleet carrier in action every month (CV and CVL). By the end of 1943, the IJN was going to be completely overmatched.

And then add in the flood of AAF units that occured in 1943, and events in the Pacific would have unfolded as they did in 1944.

 

[renrich]

Syscom, think about this, without Midway the IJN would have had 4 carriers and their excellent air groups that they did not have to contest Guadalcanal campaign plus you have to subtract Enterprise. They would have kept Guadalcanal at least another 6 months to a year. That would have delayed everything in both Nimitz's area as well as McArthur's.

 

[syscom3]

Syscom, think about this, without Midway the IJN would have had 4 carriers and their excellent air groups that they did not have to contest Guadalcanal campaign plus you have to subtract Enterprise. They would have kept Guadalcanal at least another 6 months to a year. That would have delayed everything in both Nimitz's area as well as McArthur's.

I did think about it and came to the conclusion that neither Midway nor Guadalcanal would have occured.

And think about this: The IJN only added 2 fleet carriers after Pearl Harbor while the US added dozens.

The US would have advanced across the central Pacific in late 1943 just as what happened. The qualitative edge was with the US and the quantitative edge was beginning tobe felt.

 

[HealzDevo]

I think that it wouldn't have delayed the US too substantially either. If anything it might have meant more focus on the B-36 Peacemaker to achieve a greater range of attack early on...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I think that it wouldn't have delayed the US too substantially either. If anything it might have meant more focus on the B-36 Peacemaker to achieve a greater range of attack early on...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Healz is in love with the "not going to fly before the end of the war" B-36 aint he? He just wont give up on it...

I think instead of Playboy magazines hidden under his bed he has pics of the B-36....

....I hope none of them are sticky!

 

[Wildcat]

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Healz - even if the B-36 program was doubled, the aircraft would never of flown before the end of WW2. The first models were underpowered and had numerous problems. The production spec for the aircraft did not appear until April 1941. Under the best conditions during that period the aircraft wasn't going to be flying for at least five years - do the math.


Just to satisfy your fetish for the B-36, see the link below....

www.B-36.net

 

[renrich]

LOL

 

[renrich]

Summer of 52, I was working hanging sheetrock on low income housing near the end of the runway at Kelly Field in SA, Texas. They were bringing in burn patients from Korea in, I think, the C99 which was the transport version of the B36, to go to BAMC. If a hammer was lying on a shelf, the vibration from the props and engines of the ac would make the hammer jump up and down. That was a big airplane.