Was the impending Pearl Harbor attack known in advance?

[Gnomey]

The battleships were sitting ducks to any type of air attack (as you brits learned a few days later with the PofW and repulse).

Besides, the battleships at Pearl were slow and incapable of catching up to the fast moving Japanese carrier forces, and we only had a single carrier within striking distance of the Japanese.

In that case the outcome was probably the best although results could perhaps of been different had the Japanese successfully hit the fuel dumps.

 

[syscom3]

.... although results could perhaps of been different had the Japanese successfully hit the fuel dumps.

Yes, that was a blunder.

There also was a fully loaded tanker tied up to a pier right next to "battleship row"....

Several thousand tons of hi octane av gas, just waiting to be lit!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

All weekend long the Military Channel has been airing the invasion of Malaya and Singapore which began 2 hours before Pearl Harbor ever started. No western powers had an inkling what the Japanese were really up to until December 7th....

 

[mkloby]

What would have happen if they had acted and sailed out to meet the IJN BEFORE the attack on Pearl Harbor? Would it have resulted in more severe and complete losses of ships and men? Instead for the ships that were salvaged and put back into service, they would have sunk, how would the USN have recovered?

Interesting. If the US concentrated her carriers, and the Pacific fleet steamed out in force - it would have been interesting. Think of what happened at Midway, only six months later... The Japanese were thoroughly worked over.

 

[Lucky13]

How far away from Pearl Harbor were the carriers Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga? Were they close enough to catch up, get close and send their torpedo and divebombers to attack? If I remember correctly Yorktown was in the Atlantic, right?

 

[syscom3]

How far away from Pearl Harbor were the carriers Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga? Were they close enough to catch up, get close and send their torpedo and divebombers to attack? If I remember correctly Yorktown was in the Atlantic, right?

Enterprise: On 28 November 1941, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel sent TF-8, consisting of Enterprise, the heavy cruisers Northampton (CA-26), Chester (CA-27), and Salt Lake City (CA-24) and nine destroyers under Vice Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., to ferry 12 Grumman F4F-3 Wildcats of Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 211 to Wake Island. Upon completion of the mission on 4 December, TF-8 set course to return to Pearl Harbor. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found TF-8 about 215 miles west of Oahu.

Lexington: On 5 December 1941, TF-12, formed around Lexington, under the command of Rear Admiral John H. Newton, sailed from Pearl to ferry 18 Vought SB2U-3 Vindicators of Marine Scout Bombing Squadron 231 to Midway Island. Dawn on 7 December 1941 found Lexington, heavy cruisers Chicago (CA-29), Portland (CA-33), and Astoria (CA-34), and five destroyers about 500 miles southeast of Midway. The outbreak of hostilities resulted in cancellation of the mission and VMSB-231 was retained on board [they would ultimately fly to Midway from Hickam Field on 21 December].

Saratoga: Saratoga, having recently completed an overhaul at the Puget Sound Navy Yard, Bremerton, Washington, reached NAS San Diego [North Island] late in the forenoon watch on 7 December. She was to embark her air group, as well as Marine Fighting Squadron (VMF) 221 and a cargo of miscellaneous airplanes to ferry to Pearl Harbor.

Yorktown (CV-5), Ranger (CV-4) and Wasp (CV-7), along with the aircraft escort vessel Long Island (AVG-1), were in the Atlantic Fleet; Hornet (CV-8), commissioned in late October 1941, had yet to carry out her shakedown. Yorktown would be the first Atlantic Fleet carrier to be transferred to the Pacific, sailing on 16 December 1941.

 

[Lucky13]

Cheers Syscom...

 

[Njaco]

So Admiral Kimmel saved the carriers while taking the blame for Pearl? Theres justice for ya.

 

[syscom3]

So Admiral Kimmel saved the carriers while taking the blame for Pearl? Theres justice for ya.

Kimmel (and Gen Short) was derelict in defending Hawaii for many reasons.

The carriers were out on missions to deliver aircraft, not to be out of port in case of an attack.

 

[Njaco]

Yes I agree but almost every reference I've seen underscores his defense of Pearl while this is the first that I've seen where he had a hand in having the carriers away from the attack. He takes the blame but when I saw that he ordered the carriers away, just made me wonder.

 

[Lucky13]

What if they had sent up fighters when they first saw the Japanese coming? Did they spot them early enough to get them up to altitude?

 

[Njaco]

Radar was in its infancy and they had a few sets brought over from England but didn't rely on it much. They saw the blips and thought it was a fliight of B-17s due in from the mainland.

 

[syscom3]

What if they had sent up fighters when they first saw the Japanese coming? Did they spot them early enough to get them up to altitude?

The Japanese were coming in at a middle altitude, so the time to climb wasnt excessive.

Unfortunatly, they were all pretty much destroyed on the ground quickly.

 

[Thorlifter]

Gotta side with the US knew something, but had no idea it was Pearl.

 

[Lucky13]

Isn't that the general belief that they knew that there were an attack going to happen but they didn't know where?

 

[syscom3]

The consensus was that a Japanese attack would start at the Philipines.

While some USN and US Army officers suspected that there could be an attack on pearl harbor, it was discounted.

In 1941, no one suspected that Japan could put together 6 carriers and execute a perfect strike on such a large and important military installation like Pearl Harbor.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The consensus was that a Japanese attack would start at the Philipines.

While some USN and US Army officers suspected that there could be an attack on pearl harbor, it was discounted.

In 1941, no one suspected that Japan could put together 6 carriers and execute a perfect strike on such a large and important military installation like Pearl Harbor.

Agree 100%

 

[timshatz]

There was an interesting supposition about radar and what would've happened if the guy in the Operations Center (Kermit Tyler?) had hit the panic button instead of saying to the two privates "Don't worry about it".

The bottom line it came down to was....nothing much would've changed.

The US was not on a war footing. The guns for the planes weren't armed, the ships weren't ready, everybody was at peace. The first thing that would've happened (again, this was all supposition but it was fairly well thought out) would've been the contact report would've gone up the line, each guy passing the buck. That would've taken at least an hour if the chain of command (remember, it was Sunday morning) was efficient. It wasn't. That can be seen by the USS Ward sinking (not just depth charged but actually fired it's main armament at) a midget sub at 6:45Am and the commander of the US Pacific Fleet didn't find out about it until after 8am.

Even if the radar call had gotten down to the people in charge, they'd passed it along and everybody had done what they were supposed to do, the Pacific Fleet still would've gotten clobbered on Dec 7th.

In a way, they were lucky it happened in Pearl Harbor and not out in the open Pacific. As it was, the survivors from Battleship row and other sinkings only had to swim to shore (about 100yds away) instead of awaiting rescue in the middle of nowhere.

Not only did the machine shops, oil depot and submarines survive the attack, so did most of the personel in the Pacific Fleet. And those guys were the nucleas of the fleet that later destroyed Japan.

 

[renrich]

Nit picking but Salt Lake City was CA25 not CA24 which was Pensacola. Actually Halsey, in command of the task force in Enterprise, had them pretty much on a war footing because they felt that war was imminent. However, if the US had been aware of the IJN and the attack on PH and sent Enterprise and Lexington and the BBs to ambush them I think the US taskforce would have been lucky to survive. With only 2 carriers versus 6 Japanese our BBs would have been sitting ducks and the carriers may have both been sunk and the air groups decimated. Our carrier air groups were not nearly as efficent and experienced in December 1941 as they were in June 1942.

 

[Lucky13]

Which probably would have cost USN a lot more in sunken ships which they couldn't salvage.... Coral Sea and Midway might have happened a lot later instead, right?