A myth about the Me 262?

[pattle]

I think the golden rule is we only know what we read. One person reads one thing and another person reads something else, then we argue over who read what was the true version of events and all the time none of us were actually witnesses to what actually happened anyway. I have noticed that a few people on here can get quite rude and aggressive when another person doesn't agree with the version of events that they have chosen to accept.
I just think that with hindsight in 1945 as in 2013 it is easy to see just how good jet engines were, but in 1940 they were just another thing on the drawing board that may or may not have lived up to expectations.

 

[Juha]

IMHOby the time LW got tactics right for 262 Allied had learned effective anti-jet tactics and real world results shows that 200 Me 262s would not have changed much in fact I don't like the way how G "forgot" JG 7, the main 262 fighter unit and the fact is that in early Apr 45 LW had 180 Me 262s in day fighter units, I seriously doubt that 120 more would have made any big difference, whatever Galland said.

On subs, on the other hand RN had in late WWI hunter-killer subs, the R-Class with 14knots underwater speed, but the last was scrapped in 1934 because RN saw no need for the special hunter-killers.

 

[davebender]

Jumo 004A engine could have been mass produced during 1943.

Are you suggesting it was possible to mass produce a reliable jet engine before 1943?

 

[Juha]

Jumo 004A engine could have been mass produced during 1943.

Are you suggesting it was possible to mass produce a reliable jet engine before 1943?

IIRC the reason why 004A was not put into production was that it used too much strategic metals which were very scare in Germany.

Juha

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I bet 1500 Meteors shooting down 150 Luftwaffe planes would be an example of hreat success...

Ok, I will show myself the door.

 

[Juha]

I bet 1500 Meteors shooting down 150 Luftwaffe planes would be an example of hreat success...

Ok, I will show myself the door.

Oh I don't catch it. Most of us seem to think that 262 was a better fighter than Meteor III.

Juha

 

[GregP]

According to Adolph Galland, about 1,430 Me 262's were accepted for Luftwaffe service, but no more than about 300 total saw combat, with no more than about 50 - 60 in service at any one time. If anyone would know, he should know.

The few that saw combat shot down about 150 Allied planes.

Given the engine life issues, I don't think it did all that badly. It was a case of new technology not quite mastered in time to make a difference, but it certainly showed the way for future generations of jet fighters.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh I don't catch it. Most of us seem to think that 262 was a better fighter than Meteor III.

Juha

I am just takinga fun stab at certain people. It is all meant in fun, nothing else.

I bet the same people consider two P-80's operational even more of a success...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

According to Adolph Galland, about 1,430 Me 262's were accepted for Luftwaffe service, but no more than about 300 total saw combat, with no more than about 50 - 60 in service at any one time. If anyone would know, he should know.

The few that saw combat shot down about 150 Allied planes.

Given the engine life issues, I don't think it did all that badly. It was a case of new technology not quite mastered in time to make a difference, but it certainly showed the way for future generations of jet fighters.

Oh quit it now! You are making sense.

Just more fun. No one should get butt hurt...

 

[GrauGeist]

Jumo 004B engine did not achieve 100 hour reliability until early 1945. The switch to hollow turbine blades caused vibration problems which required time to sort out.

Jumo 004A was an earlier variant of the same engine which Germany chose not to place into mass production. 80 prototypes were built to allow Me-262 airframe testing and to gain experience with jet engines in general.

The 004A had vibration problems. The alloy compressor blades were switched out for steel units and bench tested with a 10 hour endurance with positive results. This was in December 1941. 3 months later it was carried up by a Bf110 for testing.

In 1943, the 004B was tested several times with 100 hour runs. Some of the 004B units developed vibration problems but was solved by changing the compressor blade's taper. The 004B weighed over 200 pounds less because of a change in the materials and this also led to a shorter service life (10-25 hours) on average.

(Not sure where you're getting your info...I use Pavelec and Meher-Homji for reference.)

Jumo 004A engine could have been mass produced during 1943.

Are you suggesting it was possible to mass produce a reliable jet engine before 1943?

The answer is yes. Like I posted earlier in the thread, *if* the RLM had taken Von Ohain and Heinkel seriously in the late 30's and sponsored the R&D nessecary, they could have had key issues worked out before the war began in earnest and production became a crisis resulting in mad scramble for materials, hiding production facilities and so on.

The timeline:
Dr. Wagner started his design of the axial turbine in 1935.
Von Ohain successfully tested his He S3a in 1937.
The He178 successfully flew, powered by a He S3B on 27 August 1939.
Jumo004A first tested October 1940
The He280 was demonstrated to Udet on 5 April 1941, who showed no interest.
The Me262 first flew under jet power 18 July 1942 (with a tail wheel).
Jumo 004A ordered into production by RLM August 1942.
The Ar234 first flew 15 June 1943.
Jumo 004B production begins January 1944.
BMW003 ready for mass production August 1944.
He162 successfully flew 6 December 1944.
January 1945 everyone's in a blind panic and coming up with space ships, flying lawn darts and God only knows what...far too late for any coherent jet engine development by this stage...

So in view of the early development of the jet engines, had the RLM taken an interest in this technology, and funded research during the prewar years, alot of progress could have been made when desperation was not a priority.

 

[awack]

And greatest number of 262 day fighter sorties flown was 76 on 10 April 45, USAAF lost 19 bombers and 8 fighters on that day, but 31 Me 262s were shot down. And because USAAF fighters strafed extensively on that day (they were credited with 309 strafing kills altogether) at least some of US losses fell to the Flak.

This combat record is what makes me hold the me 262 in such high regard, US fighters were staggered meaning that the me 262s climbing to take on the bomber formations were attacked from 6000ft then 8000ft and so on....yet they were able to score victories, imagine instead of me 262s they were Fw 190 D9, P51 D, or Spitfire 14, how well do you think they would have fared.

 

[parsifal]

This combat record is what makes me hold the me 262 in such high regard, US fighters were staggered meaning that the me 262s climbing to take on the bomber formations were attacked from 6000ft then 8000ft and so on....yet they were able to score victories, imagine instead of me 262s they were Fw 190 D9, P51 D, or Spitfire 14, how well do you think they would have fared.

Not much better than the historical types that actually fought. why...because the overwhelming majority of losses for both sides had nothing to do with fighter, provided both sides had fighter.

What the germans needed over quality was quantity, and the Me 262 didnt go to that. in fact, because of the difficulties in serviceability for the new type, it would be quite arguable that the type would have acted to decrease the effectiveness of German air defences. its the same argument as that which dogs the tiger tank fans.

 

[Jenisch]

Anyway, the Me 262 was something necessary. If the war had continued, the Allies would have fielded their jets (actually the British were already doing it by the war's end, but only over their lines). However, by 1944 the question for the LW was not how to survive, but which would be the better way to inflict the most casualities in the enemy before the defeat.

 

[Juha]

According to Adolph Galland, about 1,430 Me 262's were accepted for Luftwaffe service, but no more than about 300 total saw combat, with no more than about 50 - 60 in service at any one time. If anyone would know, he should know.

Yes, he should but on 9 Apr 45 there were about 200 in front line units of which 180 were day fighters, according to Price. Maybe he really forgot that there was JG 7.

The few that saw combat shot down about 150 Allied planes.

Given the engine life issues, I don't think it did all that badly. It was a case of new technology not quite mastered in time to make a difference, but it certainly showed the way for future generations of jet fighters.

That is ok, I think.

Juha

 

[GregP]

Beat me. Make me feel cheap.

I think the production rates really ramped up in Septober, Octember, and Nowonder, 1944.

 

[Civettone]

Personally having read up on the subject some I think the electro-boat (type 21 U-boat) had much more potential to alter things as they turned out to knock the UK out of the war - and given that in large part even it was firmly rooted in it WW1 U-boat tech I think that would have been a better bet for Germany, the large investment in the less capable type 7 class need never have happened saving resources giving the KM a much more deadly weapon at sea.
Pre-fab'ed construction (once the bugs were ironed out) could have had them spitting them out like sausages.

Not really, at most one Elektroboot could be constructed per day. If the Germans were to win the Battle of the Atlantic, they needed hundreds of operational subs at any given time. And that is assuming that these subs have the edge as they did in 1941.
Do not get me wrong, I think the XII was an amazing machine, far ahead of its time, and close to impossible to destroy. In fact, it was faster than the US Fido torpedo.
But I assume we are getting off topic, maybe something for the general WW2 forum??

Kris

 

[Tante Ju]

What the germans needed over quality was quantity, and the Me 262 didnt go to that. in fact, because of the difficulties in serviceability for the new type, it would be quite arguable that the type would have acted to decrease the effectiveness of German air defences. its the same argument as that which dogs the tiger tank fans.

In fact there was nothing wrong with Tiger servicibility (which was pretty much the same as the ordinary German tanks like Pz IV, and better than Panther) or that of the Me 262. Its just a fact that that dogs detractors of both.

 

[stona]

I think that Adam Tooze either has VERY limited access to historical records or sees history from his own perspective.

You'd be very wrong about the first bit (a google of his name will reveal his credentials) but you'd be very right about the second bit. He is a historian who does not avoid controversy but like all others interprets the data in ways that we might not all agree with.
He has made important contributions to the understanding of the economic effects in Germany of the allied military effort, notably the bombing campaigns of the RAF and USAAF, as well as the inter war German economic situation.
Cheers
Steve

 

[pattle]

Maybe the Ta152 would have had more impact than the Me262? I know you could argue that the Ta152 was a later aircraft than Me262 as there were fewer produced by wars end and that even those few were not perfected, you could also argue over how good the Ta152 actually was as it was never properly tried against the Mustang.
The proposition I am trying to make is would it have been better in principle to have switched production to a much improved piston fighter than to the Me262. Had the alternative option of the Ta152 been there it would have offered a number of advantages over the Me262 which while being a superb aircraft had it's disadvantages and possible Achilles heals. This is not a assertion only a suggestion.
I feel that the Me262's greatest supporters are it's biggest critics by placing to much faith in it, it sort of makes me think of a pushy parent with to greater expectations of it's child abilities.

 

[Civettone]

The Ta 152 might have been better than the P-51, but that is not what the Germans needed. If the Germans wanted to tip the scales, they needed an aircraft which was far advanced to anything the Allies had. This is the only way they could break free from their numerical inferiority.
In fact, that was the idea behind the wonder weapons: Germany could not outproduce its enemies, so it had no choice but to rely on technological superiority. They failed to achieve this, or at least in time.


Kris