Bournemouth raid 1943.

Wildcat said:

For what its worth here is part of the passage from the book "Hatching an Air Force" by Peter Ilbery, which prompted me to ask the questions in the first place.

Am I wrong to assume this indicated clear weather, as he was "enjoying the outlook over the channel" and was able to see the FW's approaching at very low level?

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Yeah, just skimming the book, the official report for Bournemouth says it was brilliant sunshine, one of the witnesses says beautiful clear day, another a bright sunny day, another beautiful warm sunny, etc.

The 1 Sqn pilot (Hastings) says fine, sunny, slight haze:


The official report for Bournemouth says 6-12 miles visibility.



Your initial post also asked about losses - will try to scan them in and post tomorrow, no guarantees though as various family things have to be taken care of.

Njaco said:

To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.

I have found out that a Malcolm V. Lowe, author of several warbird books including one on the Fw 190, was taking personal experiences of that day to write a book about it. Haven't found out if its completed or not.

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Chris Goss lists Wenger as 13 St Kap sometime March - June 1943, doesn't say whether he was leading the Bournemouth attack, however he's got a pic taken by Wenger as he flew towards the Cumberland Hotel.

To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.

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Chris Goss says 20 aircraft from II/SKG 10 hit Hastings, at the same time 26 aircraft from IV/SKG 10 hit Bournemouth.

Goss says the two 190s lost on the Hastings raid were flown by Adam Fischer and Herbert Dobroch. Both were listed as missing (their bodies have never been found)

Either Goss is wrong, or Crumpp is. Considering Goss even has names for the German pilots killed, I'd say Crumpp is the one making the mistake.

Regarding the weather, Goss quotes the official British report on the raid:

Enemy aircraft approached from the South East in brilliant sunshine across the line of flight.

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Crumpp, I'll ask again what evidence you have that the weather was too bad for the Germans to fly.
Jafu 2 orders.

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Can you post them?

So Crumpp, what documents tell you that there were no German operations?
Why don't read the thread, Hop. Not reading it combined with sensationalism will get you ignored.

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Crumpp, I'm sorry, but I'm finding it hard to keep track of your position. You seemed to be arguing that there were no attacks on the 23rd. For example:

I am just saying that is hard for the Germans to be bombing Bournemouth when their airplanes are not flying.

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Now if your position has changed, it would be helpful if you would say so, then people could understand what your latest claim is.

Guys, some great info being shared about this raid and I appreciate the effort some of you have gone to. Keep it coming! This is the reason I come to this site, to learn.
Crumpp, your reply to my post was unwarrented and unwelcome, your arrogance has been duly noted. Whether the Fw 190 pilots had to fly part of the way on instruments or not is irrelevent in my mind, the fact remains that they reached their target, bombed it, sustained some casualties and made it home. This is the information that I, and I suspect others, are interested in. If you want to discuss/argue about VFR/IFR flying/landings go and create a new thread, I'm sure others will take a keen interest in it as well.

Crumpp, your reply to my post was unwarrented and unwelcome, your arrogance has been duly noted.

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Wow! Don't even pretend to preach. You ever think that you not reading my post were unwelcome? You know one guy doing that is a nuisance; an entire thread of people doing it is a real pain.

If you would have just bothered to read my position, this would be a great discussion. Instead what is happening is an internet argument tactic were every time the page turns, it get's restated into a ridicules claim that has nothing to do with the facts.

The whole IFR/VFR discussion was only brought about because of claims about what is possible or likely that just stem from ignorance. This is not meant to hurt anyone's feelings. It is just fact. The purpose was to educate so that a discussion of the facts could take place.

Then we have Hops post. Typical of the behavior in this thread and a common gamer's tactic. This is what at least the 4th time I have had to state my position and he still does not understand it?

Why? He does not care what my position really is and only wants to create a perception of "winning" some position of his own fantasy. It's not a serious examination of history or discussion. It's completely something else where facts and history are irrelevant. The only point is winning.

You seemed to be arguing that there were no attacks on the 23rd. For example:

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then people could understand what your latest claim is.

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It has not changed since the beginning of the thread.

From Page 2:

How about some dates have been mixed up? Maybe the units have been mixed up? It's not SKG 10? How about if we pool our resources we might learn something?

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Page 3:
It certainly does not preclude the possibility of other units conducting the mission nor the dates being confused.

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Regarding attacks:

The question is WHEN and by WHO.

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Explanations offered for discussion that fit the facts. Funny the majority of the participants in this thread would rather ignore this and continue to state their fantasy version of what they think is my position:

Crumpp says:
I think either the date is confused with the raid most likely taking place on 30 May 1943 if it was SKG 10.

Another real possibility for the 26th of May is SG101 out of Rhiems. The weather was clearer towards the German border and the Typhoon encounter is almost a direct line between Rheims and Bournemouth.

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Page 3 again, about witnesses and weather:

Eyewitness testimony of the weather in England has no bearing on SKG 10 flying the mission. So no, my contention is not that the eyewitness accounts are wrong. It is just that they have no bearing on the German side of events or Jafu 2 Orders.

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Since page 3 this thread has been about having to constantly point out that I have never made the claim in context of:

You seemed to be arguing that there were no attacks on the 23rd.

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Once again. It is hard for SKG10 to be the unit when they are not flying that day according Jafu 2.


SKG 10 and SG101, as well as every other ground attack unit in the Luftwaffe on the Western Front were involved in a sustained ground attack campaign against England.

Chris Goss says 20 aircraft from II/SKG 10 hit Hastings, at the same time 26 aircraft from IV/SKG 10 hit Bournemouth.

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Well Jafu 2 orders are different. Maybe Chris Goss can tell them. It certainly wouldn't be the first time an author made an error.

To clear it up alittle, I hypothesized that it was SKG 10 based on Pb's post about a Lt. Leoplold Wenger leading the flight. It could have been another unit.

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This is a complete waste of time and I will never get that time back. Good discussing things with you Najco. I wish you luck in your research. I will leave you to the kiddies.


All the best,

Crumpp

Bournemouth says it was brilliant sunshine,

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No it says Sunny and haze.

Big difference.

IFR producers are fog, low clouds, haze, smoke, blowing obstructions to vision, and precipitation.

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Haze is a concentration of salt particles or other dry particles not readily classified as dust or other phenomenon. It occurs in stable air, is usually only a few thousand feet thick, but sometimes may extend as high as 15,000 feet. Haze layers often have definite tops above which horizontal visibility is good. However, downward visibility from above a haze layer is poor, especially on a slant. Visibility in haze varies greatly depending upon whether the pilot is facing the sun. Landing an aircraft into the sun is often hazardous if haze is present.

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Aviation weather -Common IFR Procedures *

All typical behaviors of frontal weather systems.

Crumpp, if you have the Jafu 2 orders do they mention any other unit flying? On that date? My apolodies if you have posted this (not wont to re-read pages of posts ) I know III./JG 26 was transferring to Nordholz from the area.

If it wasn't SKG 10, maybe we can narrow it down.

Just curious. mhuxts 2nd pic for 1300 hours mentions 2 aircraft brought down by AA. I know you have the typhoons taking out 2 Fws. On your list from Tony Wood does it mention when the typhoons did that? Possibly the same Fws?

Isn't research fun!

Crumpp said:

Wow! Don't even pretend to preach. You ever think that you not reading my post were unwelcome? You know one guy doing that is a nuisance; an entire thread of people doing it is a real pain.

Crumpp

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This is EXACTLY what I was talking about for you to tone this down. Wildcat has been a member of this forum for a long time. I asked you to tone it down, yet you continue. For this, you are getting an infraction.

And you will not call members of this forum kiddies!

Just because some people dont have the knowledge that you have, does not give you the right to talk down to them or insult them.

You have a world of knowledge but you think you are better than everyone else.

If you dont tone it down then you can find some "kiddies" to talk with someplace else!

Njaco said:

I know you have the typhoons taking out 2 Fws. On your list from Tony Wood does it mention when the typhoons did that?

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The Tony Wood list actually only has one claim by Typhoons:

Claim 23.05.43 F/Sgt. W.H. Ramsey 11 Group 1 Sqn. 1 - 0 - 0 FW 190 13.15: 5-15 sm. S. Hastings

I've posted part of it above - will try to get the rest of it up here, might have some bandwidth issues.

All of Tony Wood's stuff can be found here:

http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

The file that's relevant to this discussion is about halfway down; "RAF US Fighter Commands - with annotated text. Issue I 1943".

Thanks, mhuxt. I actually downloaded the pdf file and I thought I saw two claimed but I'll have to download again as I have somehow deleted the file!

That just caught my eye is all.

Still digging as this is interesting. Found several facts. III./JG 26 was moving to Nordholz from Welveghem (one source) although another says it was the 15th.

And a Fw made an emergency landing in Denmark, unit unknown. So I'm tending to believe that regardless of weather conditions Ops were still conducted, although I've only found transfers and recon.

Hi:

Losses for SKG 10 on the day:



Sources used:

Mhuxt, I also checked units on the Western front -

Units that had Fw 190: Alfred Price. Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997
May '43 Luftflotte 3:

Stab/JG 2
I/JG 2
II/JG 2
III/JG 2

Stab/JG 26
II/JG 26
III/JG 26

11. (Jabo)/JG 54

Stab/SKG 10
I/SKG 10
II/SKG 10
IV/SKG 10

also:

11.(Jabo)/JG 54 - In Luftflotte 3 until 5.43, In 6.43 became 11./JG26. From 9.43, see III./JG26.

Stab/SKG 10 - Formed 1.12.42 in St. André. On 18.10.43 redesignated Stab/SG10. 0perated from Amsterdam-Schiphol, 3.43 - 6.43, North Africa afterwards (10.43)

I/SKG 10 - Amsterdam-Schiphol (St. André) until 10.43, Rosieres until 9.3.44, Amy until 13.5.44

II/SKG 10 - Rennes-St. Jacques until 11.6.43

IV/SKG 10 - Cognac until 15.6.43, Italy until 9.43, Coulommiers until 10.43


I couldn't find any other jabo units in the West flying the Fw 190 in that area except for SKG 10 and 11.(Jabo)/JG 54. But I did find something interesting on one site that repeated the Hastings book and added:
"Canoe, Hunt, Fish, and Fly," ... by Otterflogger - Dr. Maurice Shnider, One of "Our Finest"!
"As a matter of interest, that Messerchmitt was pursued towards France by two RAF Spitfires and shot down over the Channel. I discovered that Christopher Gloss, an aviation writer and historian who lives outside of London, is completing a book on the tip-and-run raids over Southern England.

Shortly after my return to Canada, I left a phone message on his line and I was pleasantly surprised when he called back within the hour. I had a delightful chat with him and I can't wait to obtain his book.

In the process of researching his book, Mr. Gloss had corresponded with Lieutenant Wenger's brother in Austria. He obtained a picture of a hotel on the East Overcliff Drive taken from the cockpit of the Focke-Wulf 190 as it swooped in from the Channel at roof-top level. This hotel was later identified as the Cumberland, which is only two doors away from the Cottonwood where I was first billeted in January 1943.

As a footnote Mr. Gloss learned that the enemy pilot was awarded the Knight's Cross for bravery in January 1945 and was killed three months later when his aircraft was shot down by the Russians."

And from a German site:
"Since May 01, 1943, he was Staffelkapitaen of the 13./SKG 10. Awarded Ritterkreuz on 14 January 1945. Lt Leopold 'Poldi' Wenger fell on 10 April 1945 during an air battle over Vienna."


So from your pic it seems Ofw. Dobroch 5(?)./SKG 10 was shot down by Sgt. Ramsey and Uffz. Schmidt of 15./SKG 10 and Fw. Fisher of 6./SKG 10 were shot down by flak. Conforms to the bomb location pic and claims.

Interesting to note that the FW from 11./SKG was damaged at Amiens while taxiing for an operational mission.

Every account - at least from England - says sunny day. Still checking.

Hi Njaco:

Yep, Goss (Gloss...) has several excerpts from Wenger's diary, along with many photos taken in action by Lt. Wenger. In the acknowledgements, there's mention of a Herr W. Wenger; I suppose this is the brother.

The pic of the Cumberland hotel, which is described in your quote, appears in the book.

There's also a pic (looks like it was taken at the time) of Streich's grave marker, with unit and date, and the VDK (basically the German version of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission) lists Schmidt as resting in the cemetery in Cannock Chase, died 23 May '43. Apparently his diary was recovered at the time - he's the poor chap who was on his first operational sortie. Must have been flying tail-end Charlie...

I definately have to increase my library! Great stuff.

Wildcat said:

I ask because Bournemouth was the locations of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Recieving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK. From what I can gather six RAAF airmen plus many civilians were killed in the raid. Was this a delibrate attack on RAAF personnel or were they simply in the way of a more important target?

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Why would they have the receiving station there? Wouldn't it be better to put it AWAY from POSSIBLE attacks?

SeaSkua said:

Why would they have the receiving station there? Wouldn't it be better to put it AWAY from POSSIBLE attacks?

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Lots of accomodation for for incoming aircrew from Canada and Australia as its a sea side resort

Here's the remainder of the 1 Squadron Combat Report.



From "the coast just east of Rye" to the centre of Hastings is about 8 or 9 miles.

Sure looks like the Luftwaffe was flying on the 23rd and Crumpp is a freakin moron...