Brewster Buffalos in the German and Finnish AF

[ToughOmbre]

Ah, ok, the "if I won the lotto" scenario.

Yea, I got no problem spending other people's money
(At least it would be for a good cause!)

TO

 

[Haztoys]

Displayed "as is"? Do you have a source for that info? I can't believe they wouldn't do any restoration at all, even for static display. They would certainly at least want to stop corrosion from continuing.

The Naval museum in Pensacola currently has it in storage. What ends up happening by the time it hits the display area is anyone's guess.

No source and plans change EG ...But that the same info "I" had read at the time it was found..To display it as found...I'm sure that plan has changed...To rare not to clean her up some... ....

 

[evangilder]

I was looking to see if there were definite plans on that. I would hate to see the only example left put on display in a wrecked condition.

 

[Lucky13]

What's it doing in the US? Isn't that a bit far away from Finland where it saw combat and should be displayed? Just curious fellas, is it because it's an Brewster and US built?

 

[Mangrove]

Displayed "as is"? Do you have a source for that info?

Brewster Buffalo: So where is BW-372 now?

The plan is to display the aircraft in its Finnish Air Force warpaint with minimal restoration.

What's it doing in the US? Isn't that a bit far away from Finland where it saw combat and should be displayed? Just curious fellas, is it because it's an Brewster and US built?

Minerva Kustannus Oy » Kadonneen Brewsterin metsästys

virtualpilots.fi: bw372lecture

For short: The authors of this book, Marja Lampi and Vladimir Prytkov were part of a team searching for the Brewster in 1998 or so. A Finn, Timo Nyman, found the plane and the original plan was to get the plane to Finland or in USA.

Shortly after the plane was found, Russian OMON arrested them and took the Brewster. The Russian "mafia" then sold the plane to USA through Ireland.

 

[Lucky13]

I see, thanks mate! I guess that the Finns were a bit p*ssed off with that...

 

[Mangrove]

I see, thanks mate! I guess that the Finns were a bit p*ssed off with that...

Well, the aviation fans were a little bit. The Goverment, the Air Force or Nokia (the company sponsored one of the Brewsters and the plane was named after the company) could not care less.

 

[evangilder]

Hmm, the page was posted in 2004. I wonder if the plan is still the same. Like I said, it seems so wrong to display the only example in that condition.

 

[Mangrove]

Hmm, the page was posted in 2004. I wonder if the plan is still the same. Like I said, it seems so wrong to display the only example in that condition.

The same information can be found from the museum's website, at least I found it few months ago from the special Brewster site.

For me it's much important to preserve the original paint job and markings from the last aerial battle than have one more "fake" plane with wrong markings to some museum.

 

[evangilder]

I have no problem with keeping it in the original Finnish markings from recovery. I would just like to see it in a more flyable looking condition.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like I'm doubting, I just have seen many times where what a museum plans at time of delivery is different from what ends up on the display floor, or ceiling.

 

[Lucky13]

I'd do complete restoration, and paint her in the colors that they found her in....

 

[evangilder]

Yeah, I agree. The site that Mangrove posted says "The long-term restoration plans are still very much up in the air.". So it still remains to be seen what they will do with it.

 

[Mangrove]

I'd do complete restoration, and paint her in the colors that they found her in....

Complete waste of time, resources and historical value since the aircraft already have complete paint job from 1942!

Yeah, I agree. The site that Mangrove posted says "The long-term restoration plans are still very much up in the air.". So it still remains to be seen what they will do with it.

Message from the Museum Director Regarding Disposition of the Brewster Buffalo - 2007

Since the recovery of the only known surviving Brewster F2A Buffalo and its acquisition by the National Museum of Naval Aviation, much as been written and discussed regarding its disposition. Most of this has been supposition and conjecture and, as a result, inaccurate and results from the fact that almost none of the information presented has come from the organization responsible for the disposition of the aircraft. The following can be considered the official position of the National Museum of Naval Aviation regarding the disposition of this historic aircraft.

The Buffalo possesses a unique historical significance that calls for some unique handling. Most of the aircraft that the Museum acquires arrive in a configuration that does not demand or even lend itself to preservation in that configuration. Thus, after appropriate assessment, the decision is usually made to restore the aircraft to a configuration that displays it as an operational machine appropriate to its most historically significant period of use. This usually means complete restoration or repair of all damage, and reconfiguration to the period chosen, including replacement of components and equipment either with original type components or material or that which is authentic to the highest possible degree. However, the Buffalo both demands and lends itself to preservation of its configuration without restoration.

This unique aircraft was built to serve naval aviation and assigned a bureau number, but before it was delivered to the fleet, it was one of 43 sold to the Finnish Air Force. Unlike the Navy and Marine Corps experience with the Buffalo, which was marginal at best, the Finns had great success with it, achieving better than a 30:1 against the Soviet Air Force during World War II. The aircraft now at the Museum was flown by one of Finland's top aces, Lieutenant Lauri Pekuri, who had over 18.5 kills, 8 of them in this machine. Thus, the intrinsic historic value of the aircraft lies mostly with its service in the Finnish Air Force. And that is well worth preserving. In addition, another strong influence in this decision is the condition of the aircraft, which is excellent despite the fact that the aircraft spent more than a half century underwater. This fact allows preservation as is, or almost so.

Therefore, the Museum will not restore it in the markings of Marine Corps aircraft that flew during the Battle of Midway or even as Finnish Air Force aircraft. Our objective is to preserve and display the aircraft as close as possible to its original configuration and condition when it was crash landed after being shot up in a combat mission on 25 June 1942. Only components, coatings and aircraft equipment that cannot be preserved because of problems with structural integrity, major distortion of appearance, and corrosion deterioration will be repaired or replaced. Damage caused by enemy fire and subsequent crash landing will not be disturbed. Only damage done during recovery, storage and movement operations will be repaired. All of the coatings on the aircraft surfaces will be preserved and only accumulations of preservatives, petroleum products, dirt, marine and corrosion deposits, and other foreign material will be removed. Disassembly will be limited to that required for corrosion control, structural integrity and repair of handling damage. All reassembly and repair will use authentic material as close as possible to the original.

The end result will be the display of an aviation treasure in a configuration appropriate to its most historic period of service with the Finnish Air Force affected only by the stabilization of deterioration from its years in cold water and the obvious repairs necessary to make it complete and structurally sound. As near as possible, it will be fully authentic and original and instantly recognizable as a Finnish Air Force Model 239 Buffalo at a point in time when it made its last flight in hostile skies and settled to the bottom of the lake.

 

[fly boy]

i knew the fins had them but the germans?

 

[Mangrove]

I knew the Finns had them, but the Germans?

The Belgians had ordered few of them and few arrived before the invasion and were thus captured by the Germans.

Luftwaffe Experten - Captured Brewster Buffalo

 

[joy17782]

Well thats a great read of a thread , good info guys

 

[Elvis]

The Finns purchased the remainder of the Brewster F2A-1's contracted for the USN so that the USN could proceed to procure F2A-2's while keeping costs down to a reasonable level.

These F2A-1's were modified with Wright R-1820-G5 engines of 950hp under the company designation: B-239. They were crated and shipped to Sweden where they were assembled and flown to Finland (reportedly by Norwegian volunteers!)

The Russians had already made it to Finland's southern border and were trying to gain a nice chunk of prime land (which they had occupied earlier and eventually got back).
Their own AC were woefully obsolete at that point and all competitive foriegn (for Finland) allied AC were needed for their own respective countries.
The US, who had a good experience with the Brits, decided to extend their "Lend/Lease" policy to the Finn's and thus they ended up with the B-239 varient of the Brewster Buffalo, which (by that time) was already taking a back seat to the F4F in the USN.
That's why the planes were shipped to Sweden.
Any boats coming directly into Finland would have had their cargo confiscated by the Russkies.

I've got a great article on this in a mag....which is at home right now (of course ).

Anyone needs any kind "verification" or any specific info, post here and I'll try to get it to you via the aritcle (that is IF THE EMAIL ALERTS FOR THIS SITE WILL COOPERATE! ).




Elvis

 

[Juha]

Elvis, only a short note
FAF Brewsters were not "Lend/Lease" a/c but Finland bought them paying in dollars. IIRC "Lend/Lease" was a later program. Even British bought their US material at that time.

Juha

 

[Mangrove]

The Russians had already made it to Finland's southern border and were trying to gain a nice chunk of prime land (which they had occupied earlier and eventually got back).

Southern border? Pre-1939, sure, but the city of Viipuri (Vyburg) was mostly still held by the Finnish troops on 13th March 1940. The city is situated about 30-40 kilometers from the 1940 border.

The US, who had a good experience with the Brits, decided to extend their "Lend/Lease" policy to the Finn's and thus they ended up with the B-239 varient of the Brewster Buffalo, which (by that time) was already taking a back seat to the F4F in the USN.

Lend/Lease? Apart from the fact that Finns had to pay full price from the Brewster it was kind of Lend-Lease... . The Finns bought the Brewster direct from the factory, not through the US Goverment, after finding out that the planes could be bought after they were declared obsoleted by the Navy.

Any boats coming directly into Finland would have had their cargo confiscated by the Russkies.

With what? The Soviets had only one or two submarines operating at the western part of Gulf of Finland. Finnish Navy (including Coastal defence ships Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen) were operating from Turku which lies at the western part of Finland. Soviet Navy couldn't use the battleships because of Finnish coastal artillery and sea ice.

The planes were assembled at Sweden because it was the safest thing to do. Flying (the pilots were Finns apart from american volunteer Robert A. Winston) them to Finland was then the most obvious thing to do.

 

[kool kitty89]

As said it wasn't lend-lease (in fact lend-lease exascerbated instabillities of Brewster) they were purchased by Finland at full price. However it was the state department that convinced the USN to allow these a/c to go first (and not to the Navy) and later recieve F2A-2's instead.

Here's another article: The Sorry Saga of the Brewster Buffalo