Dallas Airshow Tragedy

[FLYBOYJ]

You will have been told that at flight school - "Never turn on a merging plot unless you have eyes on'.

Too many planes in that sky, too close and too much manoeuvring going on. And control telling the P-63 to 'take the lead'? WTF?

"Plot" ???

And you don't know what he was watching and what he was told (or not told) by "control" (great novice definition) It seems you have not the background or experience to comment on such so I recommend sustaining comments until PROFESSIONAL authorities come out with at least a preliminary report.

 

[MIflyer]

This tragedy leads me to recall an incidet from the early 1990's. I was flying my Ercoupe, cruising along at a little over 100 mph, and noted a high wing Piper, a Supercruiser or Supercub or something like that, off to my Right. We were headed the same direction on parallel courses and separated laterally by at least a few hundred feet, so I was not too concerned; he seemed to be a lot slower than I was. But I wanted to keep the traffic in sight so I dove slightly so I could see him when I passed, and of course that increased my speed. Maybe our courses in fact were slightly converging, but in any case the Piper pilot got a very good look at an Ercoupe doing probably 50 MPH faster than he was.

I realized that I should have altered course to the Left to make sure we had more separation but I still think it was a good idea to keep the other traffic in sight, even if you had to change altitude a little bit to do it. If he had decided to do a steep Left turn without looking around first we could have been in trouble so I think the decision to keep him in sight was a good one, but maybe I should have gone even lower.

 

[GregP]

I'm no pilot, and in all things I appreciate accidents happen. From this ground dweller's POV I have to ask what are the SOPs? In this circumstance I would think if the P-63 pilot cannot see the B-17, his responsibility is to dump speed, take a straight-and-level attitude and then locate the B-17 before closing formation?

Hi Admiral Beez.

In this case, there is a line of bombers and a line of fighters. The two lines are never supposed to intersect unless they are in formation, when they will all be more or less at the same speed, and will have their neighbors in plain sight.

My initial thought that is still ringing is simply that I find it hard to understand why the fighters were flying a line inside the line of bombers. They are faster than the bombers, most have bubble canopies (not all, to be sure) and so have better overall visibility, but not forward and downward. They are also WAY more maneuverable than bombers. The fighters (or whichever set of planes were supposed to be flying faster) should be OUTSIDE of the bombers (or whichever set of planes was supposed to be flying slower) if they are not in formation. Or it seems that way to me.

My airshow experience as a participant includes more than 12 Planes of Fame airshows, not as a pilot even though I have a license. In those airshows, the big parade lap was always in formation and everyone joined up well away from airshow center and followed the lead aircraft around the pattern at set distances. At the start of the show, we had a fighter parade lap, and every fighter was charged with keeping the fighter in front of him in sight. If they lost sight, they rolled outward, pulled up and out of the parade, and departed the parade pattern until such time as the parade landed. Then, they landed. The airspeeds were controlled and everyone was flying nearly the same speed until the parade lap changed runways and the parade aircraft entered the pattern for landing. If someone flew a bit faster, he flew a larger-diameter oval to keep position relative to the aircraft in front of him.

I'm not saying the folks in Dallas did anything wrong because, though I am a pilot, I am not an airshow pilot, and perhaps they have been running the fighters inside the bombers for many years with no issues and none likely. But the P-63 was clearly going faster than everyone else and was clearly not following the same course as the P-51s were.

Someone, likely the air boss or perhaps the plane following the P-63, might have called for the P-63 to break and climb out of the parade when it was noticed he was out of position. On the other hand, perhaps the P-63 wasn't obviously out of position long enough for anyone to see, comprehend the two courses, and make the call. When you are flying a WWII fighter, things happen quickly, and perhaps the accident simply could not have been avoided in this case. Certainly, the P-63 pilot would not take any evasive action if he did not see the B-17 in the first place, and likely never knew anything was going other than well until just before impact.

I made this post because your post says the P-63 pilot had a responsibility to take action if he did not see the B-17. But, it is not clear that he was charged with seeing the B-17. He may have been following the P-51 in front of him, and the bombers would be under his belly in the turn. Hence, my thoughts that the fighters should be outside the bomber pattern. If they are faster, nobody will overtake them from behind and any dangers are in front of them in plain sight. This rises to attention level because of the crash, not because it seems obvious to all beforehand.

So, these are just my thoughts in hindsight, not a condemnation of the airshow organizers who, collectively, have many years of flawless airshow experience. Their organization of the airshow lines may well be normal practice and not something that needed any changes. The clips we've seen in here may not tell the entire story because the P-63 likely was going faster than the other fighters for some time before this happened with no issues and none expected.

It's sort of like what SHOULD be an unwritten rule of airshows for civilians flying older warbirds. Nobody in older warbirds should be allowed to do any rolling maneuver from a low pass unless he or she is on an upline, at least 20° upward. No so for the dedicated aerobatic airplanes like an Edge 540 and the like. But warbirds are not especially aerobatic, and most require positive g-force to keep oil flowing. The only rolling maneuver that should be allowed in a warbird on a downline is when the downline comes directly out of a half-loop, such as at the top of a cuban eight, with plenty of altitude on the clock to recover back to upright flight.

 

[jimh]

Agree -

This guy does give praise to the NTSB and the FAA in investigating this crash as should be. 2 things I heard in the clip that bothers me.

This guy does state he's a private pilot and then says something to the effect that he flies simulators and makes comments based on that. 50% credibility deduction. He goes on to make a statement about during the parade of fighters its a time when the fighters do rolls or other aerobatic maneuvers. I've participated in airshows and admit that while I don't have a formation card, as far as I know there are strict guidelines on doing low level aerobatics especially when in flight with dissimilar aircraft. Maybe our jimh can ad to this. Now he is in Australia, so I'll be interested to hear from our friends down under.

But this tells me his airshow experience is from a spectator's view.

Aside from that he put together good clips and the interview with the head of the CAF.

Again, having lost several people very near and dear to me while flying warbirds, my heart goes out to the families...

Thanks Flyboy, been on my phone quite a bit the last couple days. Like all of us we are trying to figure out the how and why. Every show I've flown in has been a mix of fighters and bombers. We had both vertical and horizontal spacing, Thunder Over Michigan actually lays out giant color coded panels to aid with positioning. Never was there aerobatics with dissimilar aircraft (bombers/fighters) but at a few shows the Airboss would clear the fighters for formation, or they would form up as briefed.

Airshow briefings are pretty intense, especially Thunder, all pilots with varying degrees of experience, some with formation cards, and some without. They are very detailed and specific...that being said, I can only think of a few hiccups (lead got lost with 10 B-25s behind him, including us in Tondelayo), but nothing catastrophic, more of a buy at the O club later that night.

I honestly have no words for what happened Saturday. My heart goes out to everyone that was there, and the families that will be forever changed.

 

[buffnut453]

Hi Admiral Beez.

In this case, there is a line of bombers and a line of fighters. The two lines are never supposed to intersect unless they are in formation, when they will all be more or less at the same speed, and will have their neighbors in plain sight.

My initial thought that is still ringing is simply that I find it hard to understand why the fighters were flying a line inside the line of bombers. They are faster than the bombers, most have bubble canopies (not all, to be sure) and so have better overall visibility, but not forward and downward. They are also WAY more maneuverable than bombers. The fighters (or whichever set of planes were supposed to be flying faster) should be OUTSIDE of the bombers (or whichever set of planes was supposed to be flying slower) if they are not in formation. Or it seems that way to me.

My airshow experience as a participant includes more than 12 Planes of Fame airshows, not as a pilot even though I have a license. In those airshows, the big parade lap was always in formation and everyone joined up well away from airshow center and followed the lead aircraft around the pattern at set distances. At the start of the show, we had a fighter parade lap, and every fighter was charged with keeping the fighter in front of him in sight. If they lost sight, they rolled outward, pulled up and out of the parade, and departed the parade pattern until such time as the parade landed. Then, they landed. The airspeeds were controlled and everyone was flying nearly the same speed until the parade lap changed runways and the parade aircraft entered the pattern for landing. If someone flew a bit faster, he flew a larger-diameter oval to keep position relative to the aircraft in front of him.

I'm not saying the folks in Dallas did anything wrong because, though I am a pilot, I am not an airshow pilot, and perhaps they have been running the fighters inside the bombers for many years with no issues and none likely. But the P-63 was clearly going faster than everyone else and was clearly not following the same course as the P-51s were.

Someone, likely the air boss or perhaps the plane following the P-63, might have called for the P-63 to break and climb out of the parade when it was noticed he was out of position. On the other hand, perhaps the P-63 wasn't obviously out of position long enough for anyone to see, comprehend the two courses, and make the call. When you are flying a WWII fighter, things happen quickly, and perhaps the accident simply could not have been avoided in this case. Certainly, the P-63 pilot would not take any evasive action if he did not see the B-17 in the first place, and likely never knew anything was going other than well until just before impact.

I made this post because your post says the P-63 pilot had a responsibility to take action if he did not see the B-17. But, it is not clear that he was charged with seeing the B-17. He may have been following the P-51 in front of him, and the bombers would be under his belly in the turn. Hence, my thoughts that the fighters should be outside the bomber pattern. If they are faster, nobody will overtake them from behind and any dangers are in front of them in plain sight. This rises to attention level because of the crash, not because it seems obvious to all beforehand.

So, these are just my thoughts in hindsight, not a condemnation of the airshow organizers who, collectively, have many years of flawless airshow experience. Their organization of the airshow lines may well be normal practice and not something that needed any changes. The clips we've seen in here may not tell the entire story because the P-63 likely was going faster than the other fighters for some time before this happened with no issues and none expected.

It's sort of like what SHOULD be an unwritten rule of airshows for civilians flying older warbirds. Nobody in older warbirds should be allowed to do any rolling maneuver from a low pass unless he or she is on an upline, at least 20° upward. No so for the dedicated aerobatic airplanes like an Edge 540 and the like. But warbirds are not especially aerobatic, and most require positive g-force to keep oil flowing. The only rolling maneuver that should be allowed in a warbird on a downline is when the downline comes directly out of a half-loop, such as at the top of a cuban eight, with plenty of altitude on the clock to recover back to upright flight.

I must admit my thinking aligned with yours. Again, not a qualified airshow pilot so treat everything I say with the appropriate doses of salt. However, every other airshow I've been to where dissimilar types are operating together, the merge was managed well away from the airfield with speed disparities reduced long before the aircraft got close to each other. In this instance, the P-63 is clearly flying much faster than the B-17. I've never seen a manoeuvre like that at any airshow before, including the famed Duxford airshows with their end-of-show "balbo" that could comprise upwards of 40 aircraft. Again, this is not a ding against the pilots or the airshow operators....this may have been a well-practiced, commonplace procedure. I'm simply observing that I've never seen a manoeuvre like that at any other airshow I've attended.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks Flyboy, been on my phone quite a bit the last couple days. Like all of us we are trying to figure out the how and why. Every show I've flown in has been a mix of fighters and bombers. We had both vertical and horizontal spacing, Thunder Over Michigan actually lays out giant color coded panels to aid with positioning. Never was there aerobatics with dissimilar aircraft (bombers/fighters) but at a few shows the Airboss would clear the fighters for formation, or they would form up as briefed.

Airshow briefings are pretty intense, especially Thunder, all pilots with varying degrees of experience, some with formation cards, and some without. They are very detailed and specific...that being said, I can only think of a few hiccups (lead got lost with 10 B-25s behind him, including us in Tondelayo), but nothing catastrophic, more of a buy at the O club later that night.

I honestly have no words for what happened Saturday. My heart goes out to everyone that was there, and the families that will be forever changed.

Thanks Jim - this forum is blessed to have you around as you're a true subject mater expert! It's been a few years since I participated in any airshow (aside from Reno) but what you say matches up with what I experienced (not that matters). I hope your post fully explains to our members how things work at these airshows, especially for those who like to give their perspectives from their armchairs.

Thanks again Jim, condolences to the families

 

[gumbyk]

You will have been told that at flight school - "Never turn on a merging plot unless you have eyes on'.

Too many planes in that sky, too close and too much manoeuvring going on. And control telling the P-63 to 'take the lead'? WTF?

You may notice that ANYONE with any real air-show experience keeps very quiet on this. We will wait until professionals have their opportunity to investigate and comment.

This was a formation, the P-63 pilot would have been solely focussed on the formation, which was to his left. I've done flights where I've never known our exact position in space form the time of joining up to the break for landing. As a wing-man anything else is dangerous.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by 'merging plot' It's not a term I've ever heard.

 

[jimh]

You may notice that ANYONE with any real air-show experience keeps very quiet on this. We will wait until professionals have their opportunity to investigate and comment.

This was a formation, the P-63 pilot would have been solely focussed on the formation, which was to his left. I've done flights where I've never known our exact position in space form the time of joining up to the break for landing. As a wing-man anything else is dangerous.

Can you please elaborate on what you mean by 'merging plot' It's not a term I've ever heard.

 

[Barrett]

I'm assuming that a "merging plot" alludes to a radar image showing two or more blips overlapping on the scope. The same concept, if different terminology, can apply to the real world.

FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD by CAFers and a couple of airshow folks...the bomber "stream" and fighter "stream" flew the same altitude, or approximately so. That might explain how the 63 driver could've been distracted.

But
Anybody who's flown much formation--and most of mine was in biplanes with similar airspeeds--knows that overtake can appear slow until it doesn't. But how in the worldwide world did the 63 miss the honking big 17 just outside the window? We may never know.

There's been some speculation about pilot incapacitation--no idea whether an autopsy would show that, considering the fireballs...

 

[ww2restorer]

In the many airshows that I have flown in, during the briefings it was always made clear at what the various airspeed bands were. By bands it is meant that bombers flew at X speed and altitude, Fighters at Y speed and Altitude, Trainers at Z speed and altitude. Jets were definitely separated further.
Noted here in this tragedy, the p63 is travelling much faster than the p51s and other fighters. I have thought about this and still wonder if there may have been a problem with the p63 such as a jammed throttle, we will learn this after the investigation.
I was fortunate to fly in a formation of T28s years ago with one of the aircraft not being able to lower his undercarriage having to belly land. It was through investigation that the aircraft had overnight maintenance and a bolt had been installed incorrectly allowing retraction but not extension(Note this bolt is highlighted in the maintenance manual and installed opposite to convention).
The reassemble of the aircraft is very critical in this investigation. RIP to all.

 

[Macandy]

In the many airshows that I have flown in, during the briefings it was always made clear at what the various airspeed bands were. By bands it is meant that bombers flew at X speed and altitude, Fighters at Y speed and Altitude, Trainers at Z speed and altitude. Jets were definitely separated further.
Noted here in this tragedy, the p63 is travelling much faster than the p51s and other fighters. I have thought about this and still wonder if there may have been a problem with the p63 such as a jammed throttle, we will learn this after the investigation.
I was fortunate to fly in a formation of T28s years ago with one of the aircraft not being able to lower his undercarriage having to belly land. It was through investigation that the aircraft had overnight maintenance and a bolt had been installed incorrectly allowing retraction but not extension(Note this bolt is highlighted in the maintenance manual and installed opposite to convention).
The reassemble of the aircraft is very critical in this investigation. RIP to all.

The P-63 was told to 'take the lead' - what was the show controller thinking clearing him to hot dog it through and across a formation of slower planes?
The P-63 is clearly banking hard left to cut ahead, even at the best of times a P-63 has very poor visibility, but banking he's completely blind ahead of him - He turned hard and fast on a merging plot and lost all situational awareness.
This was a 100% avoidable collision and the NTSB are going to go to town.

 

[gumbyk]

The P-63 was told to 'take the lead' - what was the show controller thinking clearing him to hot dog it through and across a formation of slower planes?
The P-63 is clearly banking hard left to cut ahead, even at the best of times a P-63 has very poor visibility, but banking he's completely blind ahead of him - He turned hard and fast on a merging plot and lost all situational awareness.
This was a 100% avoidable collision and the NTSB are going to go to town.

Third time... What's a 'merging plot'?

 

[Steve Hnz]

Third time... What's a 'merging plot'?

Merging paths, two lines of travel approaching an intersecting point, which is unfortunately exactly what happened here.

 

[Steve Hnz]

Edit: Keep an open mind on the video, should you watch, it's just the guy's opinion and I didn't post it making any claims other than it is an additional resource to watch.

Watched the vid & don't have too much to say about it, much is pretty self evident & the rest can wait till the experts have had at it but I did have doubts about his assessment of the relative vision from a P-63, given the the pilot sits further forward relative to the wings & has a shorter slimmer nose in front of him too. Compared to either a P-51 or P-40 or Spitfire, I would have thought the P-63 pilot had a better seating position than any of those for a decent view. Of course banked in a turn, there will be a huge area under the nose that is invisible, as we have seen, my reading of it anyway.

 

[gumbyk]

Watched the vid & don't have too much to say about it, much is pretty self evident & the rest can wait till the experts have had at it but I did have doubts about his assessment of the relative vision from a P-63, given the the pilot sits further forward relative to the wings & has a shorter slimmer nose in front of him too. Compared to either a P-51 or P-40 or Spitfire, I would have thought the P-63 pilot had a better seating position than any of those for a decent view. Of course baked in a turn, there will be a huge area under the nose that is invisible, as we have seen, my reading of it anyway.

Yep, my thoughts too...

 

[ww2restorer]

I see many references on here that the P-63 was told by the controller to increase his speed and take the lead. Where is this info, I don't see it, maybe I am getting too old.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The P-63 was told to 'take the lead' - what was the show controller thinking clearing him to hot dog it through and across a formation of slower planes?

Your source for that? I've seen no evidence anywhere where the communication between THE TOWER and the aircraft were made public. If you have a source aside from some internet bullocks or your own imagination, please enlighten us!

The P-63 is clearly banking hard left to cut ahead, even at the best of times a P-63 has very poor visibility, but banking he's completely blind ahead of him - He turned hard and fast on a merging plot and lost all situational awareness.

Wow - you got that right!

This was a 100% avoidable collision and the NTSB are going to go to town.

And it will so unless you have a background like jimh or ww2restorer ....

 

[BlackSheep]

Watched the vid & don't have too much to say about it, much is pretty self evident & the rest can wait till the experts have had at it but I did have doubts about his assessment of the relative vision from a P-63, given the the pilot sits further forward relative to the wings & has a shorter slimmer nose in front of him too. Compared to either a P-51 or P-40 or Spitfire, I would have thought the P-63 pilot had a better seating position than any of those for a decent view. Of course banked in a turn, there will be a huge area under the nose that is invisible, as we have seen, my reading of it anyway.

As far as the view from the cockpit, I thought the same, as far as I could tell from the camera's pov, there wasn't much difference between the P-63 and the P-51. Banking, I haven't seen a comparison but I remember listening to an old vet describe using certain rivets on the wing of the mustang to indicate when he should dive on a target he intended to bomb, whether that gives an indication that you could see better from a Mustang, I don't know but it seemed like an interesting thing to say. Lol

 

[DrumBob]

I wonder whether it's time to ground the remaining airworthy B-17s. Another was a destroyed a couple of summers ago. There are supposedly only nine now airworthy, and once they're gone they're gone. Forever.

The loss of life was a terrible tragedy, but the loss of those priceless WWII aircraft is unthinkable. This mishap has really shook me up.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I wonder whether it's time to ground the remaining airworthy B-17s. Another was a destroyed a couple of summers ago. There are supposedly only nine now airworthy, and once they're gone they're gone. Forever.

The loss of life was a terrible tragedy, but the loss of those priceless WWII aircraft is unthinkable. This mishap has really shook me up.

And on what authority are you going to try to do that? Are you going to demand someone like Kermit Weeks to stop flying his aircraft? Unless the FAA throws up the safety card, no one has the authority to ground airworthy aircraft regardless of how rare they are!