Dog fights on the History channel

[kool kitty89]

I just meant limping home is the better option. Of course you have to realize there's a problem though.
Or at least limping back to friendly territiory before bailing.



But were're way off topic now, and I think the side discussion has been answered anyway.

 

[Chocks away!]

I found this interesting:

In the Candelaria episode, he describes a Bf-109 that was painted yellow from nose to windscreen.

Now this wouldn't be strange in 1940-1941, but the action took place in April 1945.

Could this marking be a means of identification for the younger pilots to be able to recognize their leader?

 

[Freebird]

well I am not for supporting this bogus outfit but I received an email from a good German friend and ex-pilot of the LW. His story covering the Rammkommando Elbe (false name actually) will be aired on Dogfights I believe on the History Channel July 13, 07 in the USA. Sorry not sure when the episode will be covered elsewhere in Europe or ....... ? In any case he has been assured that the History Channel writers are not going to add nor subtract from his story and service record during the war for this part. there may even be some coverage on the Sturmgruppen, happy thought indeed ....

I gave the show a 3 out of 10 with 10 being best

Erich

I agree it's annoying when they muck up the facts or dumb it down for the general public, but in any event it sure beats Oprah American idol and the other cr@p that is on the tube these days....

 

[Kruska]

Hello to all Candelarians,

Sorry Guys, partially it is my mistake, I started on this thread after seeing the damaged P-51 on post 176 by drgondog. I mistakenly thought that the discussion was about this a/c. Still thinking about this picture and reflecting onto kool kitty89's post 239 were he even mentions: "it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting" I forwarded my statement in regards to a "good" pilot.

And pbfoot, sorry to say: Parachutes are the last means to save a pilots live, and not to comfort/encourage him to undertake suicidal, heroic or blunt actions.
Does the CAF teach its pilots to perform flight maneuvers regardless of an a/c condition, but to rely firmly on Martin Baker and a Parachute?

So IMHO a pilot who would get himself into a dogfight with a P-51 as pictured on post 176 or its condition being as described on post 239, would be a "stupid" pilot

As I said IMHO

Regards
Kruska

 

[Lucky13]

Watching the Kamikaze episode of Dogfights.....bl**dy h*ll War is hell, and Kamikaze must be the 10 level of the same....

Year Date Ship
1944
Oct. 24 Sonoma (ATO-12) (ocean tug)
Oct. 24 LCI(L)-1065 (landing craft, infantry (large))
Oct. 25 St. Lo (CVE-63) (escort carrier)
Nov. 1 Abner Read (DD-526) (destroyer)
Nov. 27 SC-744 (submarine chaser)
Dec. 5 LSM-20 (landing ship, medium)
Dec. 7 Mahan (DD-364) (destroyer)
Dec. 7 LSM-318 (landing ship, medium)
Dec. 7 Ward (APD-16) (high-speed transport)
Dec. 10 William S. Ladd (Liberty cargo ship)
Dec. 10 PT-323 (motor torpedo boat)
Dec. 11 Reid (DD-369) (destroyer)
Dec. 15 LST-472 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 15 LST-738 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 18 PT-300 (motor torpedo boat)
Dec. 21 LST-460 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 21 LST-749 (landing ship, tank)
Dec. 28 John Burke (Liberty cargo ship)
Dec. 30 Porcupine (IX-126) (auxiliary tanker)

1945
Jan. 4 Ommaney Bay (CVE-79) (escort carrier)
Jan. 5 Lewis L. Dyche (Liberty cargo ship)
Jan. 6 Long (DMS-12) (high-speed minesweeper)
Feb. 21 Bismark Sea (CVE-21) (escort carrier)
Apr. 6 Bush (DD-529) (destroyer)
Apr. 6 Colhoun (DD-801) (destroyer)
Apr. 6 Emmons (DMS-22) (high-speed minesweeper)
Apr. 6 Hobbs Victory (cargo ship)
Apr. 6 Logan Victory (cargo ship)
Apr. 7 LST-447 (landing ship, tank)
Apr. 12 Mannert L. Abele (DD-733) (destroyer)
Apr. 12 LCS(L)(3)-33 (landing craft, support (large) (Mk. III))
Apr. 16 Pringle (DD-477) (destroyer)
Apr. 22 Swallow (AM-65) (minesweeper)
Apr. 22 LCS(L)(3)-15 (landing craft, support (large) (Mk. III))
Apr. 27 Canada Victory (cargo ship)
May 3 Little (DD-803) (destroyer)
May 3 LSM(R)-195 (landing ship, medium (rocket))
May 4 Morrison (DD-560) (destroyer)
May 4 Luce (DD-522) (destroyer)
May 4 LSM(R)-190 (landing ship, medium (rocket))
May 4 LSM(R)-194 (landing ship, medium (rocket))
May 25 Bates (APD-47) (high-speed transport)
May 25 LSM-135 (landing ship, medium)
May 28 Drexler (DD-741) (destroyer)
June 10 William D. Porter (DD-579) (destroyer)
June 16 Twiggs (DD-591) (destroyer)
June 21 LSM-59 (landing ship, medium)
June 21 Barry (APD-29) (high-speed transport)
July 29 Callaghan (DD-792) (destroyer)

 

[drgondog]

Hello to all Candelarians,

Sorry Guys, partially it is my mistake, I started on this thread after seeing the damaged P-51 on post 176 by drgondog. I mistakenly thought that the discussion was about this a/c. Still thinking about this picture and reflecting onto kool kitty89's post 239 were he even mentions: "it would be in no shape to keep dogfighting" I forwarded my statement in regards to a "good" pilot.


So IMHO a pilot who would get himself into a dogfight with a P-51 as pictured on post 176 or its condition being as described on post 239, would be a "stupid" pilot

As I said IMHO

Regards
Kruska

Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.

He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.

 

[drgondog]

Yes, and that could have fatal consequences, esp. seeing that the Allies were bombing the civilian population to smithereens. I've heard of several Allied pilots being lynched by angry mobs before the German military could get to them.

The German military ofcourse tried their absolute best to capture shot down Allied pilots, hoping they could get valuable information out of them, but unfortunately sometimes angry civilians got there first.

Sometimes German military got there first.

Lt Bill Cullerton, 357FS/355FG was shot down by flak near Ansbach in April, 1945. He was immediately captured and surrendered his .45. The German officer briefly commented to him "for you the war is over and shot him in the stomach and left him to die.

Thanks to a German Catholic Priest Bill Cullerton not only survived but is the last 355th ace still alive.

 

[pbfoot]

And sometimes they ended up in concentration camps ...my Dads friend and his crew along with others USAAFRAF RCAF spent several months in one of those luxury spas

 

[Kruska]

And German Airborne officers who were given the word of honor by British or Commonwealth officers found their wounded and left behind comrades slaughtered upon returning as victors during Crete. And US soldiers shoot Wehrmacht soldiers who had surrendered. And German soldiers torched civilians barricaded/looked into churches, and the Russians …………….

Where is this thread wandering to???

Regards
Kruska

 

[Kruska]

Lol Kruska - the pilot for both of those a/c were my father and both instances were airfield flak - the first pretty obviously 20mm from high deflection. The second was at low altitude also while strafing near Munich - a long way from home. Still not sure what the round was but likely 37 or 40 mm. I don't recall mention of any 30mm flak.

He was not looking for an air battle on the second scenario as he also lost hydraulics, left main gear was damaged and tail wheel were gone. This a/c was his fourth and last Belly Landing at Steeple Morden - and yes that airplane was repaired and flew combat again.

Well your father was or is a smart pilot

Regards
Kruska

 

[Freebird]

Watching the Kamikaze episode of Dogfights.....bl**dy h*ll War is hell, and Kamikaze must be the 10 level of the same....

Wasn't the carrier USS Intrepid also lost to kamikazes?

 

[rochie]

saw kamikaze today as well
uss laffey what a ship, what a crew

 

[Soren]

And German Airborne officers who were given the word of honor by British or Commonwealth officers found their wounded and left behind comrades slaughtered upon returning as victors during Crete. And US soldiers shoot Wehrmacht soldiers who had surrendered. And German soldiers torched civilians barricaded/looked into churches, and the Russians …………….

Where is this thread wandering to???

Regards
Kruska

Well Kruska some people just love to pick a fight when'ever the opportunity arises. Just ignore it.

All sides commited war crimes during WW2, that's the reality.

The German military had special POW camps, so did the Americans, British, Soviets Japanese, and I'm sure none of them were anything close to luxury resorts.

No side during the war was "evil" as many like us to believe (Some were unknowningly fighting for the wrong cause, but that's another story), the far majority of soldiers from each side just fought for their families and home, that's it.

Anyway the point is that the German military tried their best to get hold of shot down Allied pilots and vice versa, however sometimes angry mobs got there first (Quite a few captured German pilots were lynched or shot as-well).

All sides had their bad guys, however one must keep in mind that these represented the extreme minority, even in the Waffen SS. This is the very reason behind the forming of special shooting squads, these consisted of the few men cold blooded enough to carry out the cruel orders from men such as Himmler. These men weren't well liked by the rest of the army who litterally saw them as evil individuals.

But again thankfully 99% were just like us normal people; completely unlike those evil executioners who formed the dreaded shooting squads.

German soldiers treating the wounds of a captured Soviet soldier:

 

[buzzard]

Freebird,

The Intrepid was damaged by 4 kamikazes (3 separate incidents) and had earlier been struck by an air-launched torpedo. She had a very eventful career, and the last time I saw her in NYC, she looked great (I think she has been refurbished since I was aboard her)

JL

 

[Haztoys]

saw kamikaze today as well
uss laffey what a ship, what a crew

...I never knew the kamikaze groups were so large ...50 planes

And...

History is jacked around by the winners... So to say it was all one side is nuts ..Come on guys ...

 

[davparlr]

Well Kruska some people just love to pick a fight when'ever the opportunity arises. Just ignore it.

All sides commited war crimes during WW2, that's the reality.

The German military had special POW camps, so did the Americans, British, Soviets Japanese, and I'm sure none of them were anything close to luxury resorts.

No side during the war was "evil" as many like us to believe (Some were unknowningly fighting for the wrong cause, but that's another story), the far majority of soldiers from each side just fought for their families and home, that's it.

Anyway the point is that the German military tried their best to get hold of shot down Allied pilots and vice versa, however sometimes angry mobs got there first (Quite a few captured German pilots were lynched or shot as-well).

All sides had their bad guys, however one must keep in mind that these represented the extreme minority, even in the Waffen SS. This is the very reason behind the forming of special shooting squads, these consisted of the few men cold blooded enough to carry out the cruel orders from men such as Himmler. These men weren't well liked by the rest of the army who litterally saw them as evil individuals.

But again thankfully 99% were just like us normal people; completely unlike those evil executioners who formed the dreaded shooting squads.

German soldiers treating the wounds of a captured Soviet soldier:

There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.

 

[davparlr]

Hello davparlr,


Off course every pilot will estimate and judge the damage on his a/c differently and this is where the answer lies, a good pilot will know if he continues or not, a "hero" or hothead will just go for it and get himself probably killed for nothing (besides a medal and his righteous feeling).

Regards
Kruska

Apparently, he made a "good" decision.

 

[Soren]

There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.

Agreed, that's what I was trying to say as-well.

 

[drgondog]

Agreed, that's what I was trying to say as-well.

Soren - you have thrown insults in my directions on so many threads.

You have posed as alternatively an expert in aero and structures and denigrated my own background.

Every time you post I will ask you to post the credentials as either an academic, or cite your experience in the airframe industry to match or exceed my own.

I have asked you on at least five different threads to cite the background you chose sufficient to curse me and insult my knowledge.

You have avoided each challenge and continue to slide on the subject.

Again, what are the academic credits you have achieved and what aerospace industry experience do you claim?

warm regards,

Bill

 

[drgondog]

There is nothing civilized about warfare. It reduces people to basic emotions. It would be very hard for me to be chivalrous to a shot down pilot knowing he had probably just dropped bombs on my family or shot down a friend. This occured on all fronts. However, some atrocities are just caused by meanness at shown by the Bataan death march. War is hell and to try to make it into a civilized affair is often fool hardy.

Dave - that about sums it up for WWII vets - both sides..