- Thread starter
- #121
fubar57
General
Belts are done but not glued to the seat yet. 12 pieces for the belt. May get one more update before camp tomorrow.
Geo
Geo
**** DONE: 1/48 Spitfire FR.lX - Jet/Recon/Transport GB
- Thread starter fubar57
- Start date
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Nice!
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
They look great!
Crimea_River
Marshal
You done good!
yeah, real good!
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Very nice Geo..one question..why the "late" type belts?
Edgar Brooks, with who I am in no position to argue, says IIRC that they wren't used during the war..I thought I saw earlier in the thread that you were doing the "A" type (triangle clip)? http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=28731
Anyhow, just sayin'......because I'm a difficult b@r3t4rd at times.....
The ones you have done came up a treat.
D
Edgar Brooks, with who I am in no position to argue, says IIRC that they wren't used during the war..I thought I saw earlier in the thread that you were doing the "A" type (triangle clip)? http://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?showtopic=28731
Anyhow, just sayin'......because I'm a difficult b@r3t4rd at times.....
The ones you have done came up a treat.
D
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Vic Balshaw
Major General
They sure do look good so I hope they are right.
- Thread starter
- #128
fubar57
General
Sitting in my grader at work and now I have sads. Darryl, when I read on the package, "Late War", I took that to mean 06/44, not taking into account of when the Spitfire was made. As I said, the belts aren't glued in yet so it's not a big deal. Which are the correct ones.(For some reason, the camp Net Nanny won't allow me to access your link.
Geo
Geo
Vic Balshaw
Major General
Pleased to hear the belts are not fixed in Geo, now you wont be steaming up your grader cabin with your tears of sorrow………………………
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Geo,
The "debate" over which belts is an ongoing one...however Edgar Brooks has spent a LOT of time at PRO and his conclusion is that *maybe* some Tempests and Typhoons had the QS belt (the one you have done) before the end of the war but that no Spitfires had.
QUOTES
Can anyone tell me the date when in WW II the British changed from the Sutton harness to the (mid to late war) Q type harness?
Kent in Oz
They didn't, except (possibly) on the Tempest; there's mention, in its Pilot's Notes, of a "new" type of harness. I'm only researching, fully, the Spitfire, where references to the Sutton-style harness can be found, in the Inspection Schedules, right through until 1945 for various Marks, and there are photographs, in which you can see Suttons draped over cockpit sills on 1945-era XIVs. The parachute-style "QS" harness didn't come into Spitfire use until 1946; with three harnesses having Q in their titles, confusion is an ever-present, but the QK was just a version of the Sutton K, the QL had the box-type of fitting, but appears to have been superceded by the QS. This, in turn, was superceded by the (essentially similar) ZB harness in 1950.
Edgar
So summing up the "Q type" harness, despite being described as a mid to late war modification, really didn't see general usage (in the Spitfire) until after the war, however there were a few a/c that may have had the modification. Obviously it will depend on the specific references available but it would be a safe bet to generally stick with a Sutton harness for a WWII Spitfire?
Kent in Oz
..
I'd say so; the Spitfire was unique, with its plastic seat, which was always prone to cracking, especially at the sides. Even the introduction of the QK (which was just a variation of the Sutton K) was conditional on the seat, whether plastic or metal, being above a minimum thickness, with special emphasis on the side walls. The leaflet, introducing the box-fitting type QS harness is dated 1946, which seems an inordinate delay, if they'd been in use earlier. Typhoons, Tempests, etc., probably due to their metal seats, had fewer restrictions. I have found the Typhoon manual, which definitely illustrates a Sutton, sitting in Kew's archives, but not (yet) one for the Tempest. This seems to indicate that the Typhoon might have changed, during the war, but Lord knows when (or even if.)
Edgar
END QUOTES.
In any case the "safe" bet is this one:
Here is a model one but DON'T feed the belt through the back of the seat like this one is!! Also note he has the triangle clip attached to the WRONG side..there is actually a little tab on the right shoulder harness that the cord gets tied to.
Also the right hand side lap belt SHOULD be fed through a hole in the side of the seat (like this model) to stop it tangling with the seat lift mechanism. I'll try to find a picture of the real thing..
The good news is that I have one and can give you all the detailed photos you want.
...
Sorry!!! didn't mean to ruin your day.
The "debate" over which belts is an ongoing one...however Edgar Brooks has spent a LOT of time at PRO and his conclusion is that *maybe* some Tempests and Typhoons had the QS belt (the one you have done) before the end of the war but that no Spitfires had.
QUOTES
Can anyone tell me the date when in WW II the British changed from the Sutton harness to the (mid to late war) Q type harness?
Kent in Oz
They didn't, except (possibly) on the Tempest; there's mention, in its Pilot's Notes, of a "new" type of harness. I'm only researching, fully, the Spitfire, where references to the Sutton-style harness can be found, in the Inspection Schedules, right through until 1945 for various Marks, and there are photographs, in which you can see Suttons draped over cockpit sills on 1945-era XIVs. The parachute-style "QS" harness didn't come into Spitfire use until 1946; with three harnesses having Q in their titles, confusion is an ever-present, but the QK was just a version of the Sutton K, the QL had the box-type of fitting, but appears to have been superceded by the QS. This, in turn, was superceded by the (essentially similar) ZB harness in 1950.
Edgar
So summing up the "Q type" harness, despite being described as a mid to late war modification, really didn't see general usage (in the Spitfire) until after the war, however there were a few a/c that may have had the modification. Obviously it will depend on the specific references available but it would be a safe bet to generally stick with a Sutton harness for a WWII Spitfire?
Kent in Oz
..
I'd say so; the Spitfire was unique, with its plastic seat, which was always prone to cracking, especially at the sides. Even the introduction of the QK (which was just a variation of the Sutton K) was conditional on the seat, whether plastic or metal, being above a minimum thickness, with special emphasis on the side walls. The leaflet, introducing the box-fitting type QS harness is dated 1946, which seems an inordinate delay, if they'd been in use earlier. Typhoons, Tempests, etc., probably due to their metal seats, had fewer restrictions. I have found the Typhoon manual, which definitely illustrates a Sutton, sitting in Kew's archives, but not (yet) one for the Tempest. This seems to indicate that the Typhoon might have changed, during the war, but Lord knows when (or even if.)
Edgar
END QUOTES.
In any case the "safe" bet is this one:
Here is a model one but DON'T feed the belt through the back of the seat like this one is!! Also note he has the triangle clip attached to the WRONG side..there is actually a little tab on the right shoulder harness that the cord gets tied to.
Also the right hand side lap belt SHOULD be fed through a hole in the side of the seat (like this model) to stop it tangling with the seat lift mechanism. I'll try to find a picture of the real thing..
The good news is that I have one and can give you all the detailed photos you want.
...
Sorry!!! didn't mean to ruin your day.
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Great stuff Darryl, clarifies a lot of points regarding the harness and its mounting.
The 'second' Y strap, incorrectly fed through the base of the seat back, can be seen arranged like that on some Hurricanes, but where does it go on the Spit, or is it deleted all together? It's never clear in period photos, and most airworthy Spits today use a modern harness anyway.
The 'second' Y strap, incorrectly fed through the base of the seat back, can be seen arranged like that on some Hurricanes, but where does it go on the Spit, or is it deleted all together? It's never clear in period photos, and most airworthy Spits today use a modern harness anyway.
Tony Hill
Tech Sergeant
Terry,
The second set of straps loop straight back over the seat top and down to attach via a combined "plate" with a cable to the main (lower) horizontal crossbar of the lift mechanism.
We have probably all looked at the picture a thousand times without actually noticing the detail...I know I didn't until I read Edgar's explaination!! Now it protrudes like canine testicles.
If anyone wants a copy of this, give me a yell and an email address by PM. (on way Terry)
The second set of straps loop straight back over the seat top and down to attach via a combined "plate" with a cable to the main (lower) horizontal crossbar of the lift mechanism.
We have probably all looked at the picture a thousand times without actually noticing the detail...I know I didn't until I read Edgar's explaination!! Now it protrudes like canine testicles.
If anyone wants a copy of this, give me a yell and an email address by PM. (on way Terry)
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks Darryl. Got your e-mail with the drawing. As you say, once it's been explained and described, it sticks out like a Hippocroccfrog's Rs !
I must have looked at thousands of photos, and seen the 'real thing', but never really noticed the secondary shoulder straps!
I must have looked at thousands of photos, and seen the 'real thing', but never really noticed the secondary shoulder straps!
Nice work so far Geo!
Vic Balshaw
Major General
Yes, thanks Darryl, great bit of info.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Nice work!
- Thread starter
- #137
fubar57
General
For some reason I kept going back to this drawing Andy posted and it finally dawned on me, I have the decals for this aircraft. They are/were made by a Canadian company called Watermark. If it's okay with everyone, this is how I would like to mark my entry.
Geo
Geo
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N4521U
Colonel
Ohhhhhh I don't know. Might have to take a vote on it........
I'll go with the majority!
I'll go with the majority!
I'll go with Bill and his double posts....
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
Me too!
Me too!
Me too!
