operation sea lion

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My point exactly. While its possible they could have gotten a couple divisions over there to fight, they would have had a monumental task at hand to reinforce those divisions while being required ot supply ever more supplies.

All it would take is a couple days of bad weather, and a few transports being sunk each day, and soon they would be in a world of difficulty.
 
I think the vast majority of us are in agreement. I think it says it most when Overlords success hung by a thread for days even when the Allied forces out-numbered the Wehrmacht, the Allied air forces had complete air superiority and the Allied navies had complete naval supremecy and we'd taken two harbours over there with us and laid an oil line across the channel!
 
Does anyone have information on how many tons of food/ammo/material a day a british infantry consumed, as well as a british armoured division. That goes for a German inf and armoured division.
 
The German planners for Sealion ran off an estimated figure of 300 tons of supplies (petrol, oil, ammunition, food, first aid and other consumables) minimum for an infantry division per day of a short campaign (less than 40 days). A British infantry division usually consumed about 350-400 tons a day when engaged in a campaign, or about 15-25% more than the estimated German figure.

So for the 11 division operation that was planned, i.e two airborne and 9 infantry assault divisions, the minimum requirement was for 3,300 tons of supplies, per day.

Apart from the airborne divisions, the assault divisions were to be split up into 3 seperate beacheads, without the possibility of mutual support. 4 Divisions of 16 Army were to land in the Folkestone-St Leonards area. 2 Divisions of 9 Army were to land in the Bexhill-Eastbourne area. 3 Divisions of 9 Army were to land between Beachy Head and Brighton. The actual assaults were to be carried out only by the lead-echelons of the infantry divisions (some 6,700 men per division), totalling some 60,000 troops. Organic support formations and logistics services were to follow on in the next 9 days.

The Germans only had two main port objectives for the first week of the operation; Folkstone and Dover. Folkstone had an estimated maximum capacity of about 1200 tons per day, and was supposed to be captured on the first day. Dover had a slightly higher capacity of 1400 tons per day, and was supposed to be captured intact. Together they amount to just 2600 tons per day, or about 75% of the minimum supply requirements.

However, another part of the problem here is that neither port was expected to be taken intact, or to operate at full capacity for well past the first week of the operation. German planners assumed that sabotage by the Royal Navy and bombing by the Royal airforce would cut initial unloading capacity by 75% and keep it at around 50% capacity for the first few weeks of the operation. As a result, Folkstone was expected to handle just 150 tons per day for the first few days, building to 300 tons and then to 600 at the end of the first week. Dover was a similar story. The German Army expected to capture the port intact after 5 days, but put its maximum unloading capacity at around 800 tons per day. This is assuming that the RN didn't sink the blockships at the mouth of the harbour but that the derricks were destroyed by sabotage.

So, assumed capacity was to have been about 1400 tons a day for the first 2-3 weeks of the operation. This is around 40% of the minimum supply requirement necessary to sustain an 11 division operation, by infantry forces alone. If supply requirements were just 10% higher than anticipated no more than 4 divisions could of been supplied at minimum levels. In other-words, some 1900 tons would have to be delived to 3 seperate contested beach-heads, without port facilities, over contested beaches, with both RAF and RN interferance in operations.
 
Also, another factor is how tightly packed are the troop barges? If they are very close together in a dense mass, then a B-17 Flying Fortress can just fly over the top and conduct a carpet bombing exercise on all those unfortunate transports especially if a special timer or altitude thing was put on the bombs so that they burst just slightly above the transports... Also you have the good old Avro Lancaster that could be used if there was enough fighter cover proved in the situation I mention...
 
HealzDevo said:
Also, another factor is how tightly packed are the troop barges? If they are very close together in a dense mass, then a B-17 Flying Fortress can just fly over the top and conduct a carpet bombing exercise on all those unfortunate transports especially if a special timer or altitude thing was put on the bombs so that they burst just slightly above the transports... Also you have the good old Avro Lancaster that could be used if there was enough fighter cover proved in the situation I mention...
Click to expand...

:lol:

Where do you come up with some of this stuff? Why would the troop barges be massed together in a dense mass?
 
As a result, Folkstone was expected to handle just 150 tons per day for the first few days, building to 300 tons and then to 600 at the end of the first week. Dover was a similar story. The German Army expected to capture the port intact after 5 days, but put its maximum unloading capacity at around 800 tons per day.
Click to expand...

I hope these aren't the same Generals that figured out how much Stalingrad needed. I would that German expectations and reality were two different things. If 800 tons expected would mean....how much actually would arrive?

I think the vast majority of us are in agreement. I think it says it most when Overlords success hung by a thread for days even when the Allied forces out-numbered the Wehrmacht, the Allied air forces had complete air superiority and the Allied navies had complete naval supremecy and we'd taken two harbours over there with us and laid an oil line across the channel!
Click to expand...

This is the killer for me. Even with all this, the Allies still had trouble those first 24 hours. The Germans could never have gotten far without the air and sea supremacy, proper :) landing craft, supply support, etc. They didn't have it!

And lastly I don't think Hitler was into it. He sometimes referrred to the English as of the same stock as Aryans:confused: as didn't really want to invade England. His hope was to pressure for peace. Goring just wanted the prestige no matter who the foe was.

Sealion was just not possible ... at least for success.
 
BINGO.

Did Hitler not want to turn his back on England when his main thrust was for room for the true people in the East?

Did he want to be fighting on so many fronts at once?

Did his generals?

Oh the sadness when Britain did not join with him to crush the Bolshevick untermensch.

The confusion when they defended the decadant French, the Puritan Dutch, the idle Belgians, yada yada.

While considering the military scenario faced at the time, you must look also at the political imperatives of the countries leaders, the mental state of the people in general, and the preparadness of them to commit to a plan.

Try running it through a simpe acronym we used to use called SLOPER.

Situation. Invade England
Location. England, invaded from france across a shyte bit of water.
Objective. Break the Military, parliament, and People.
Personel. Insert the number of divisons, air support and Navy you need.
Execution. A broad sweep of your plan.
Recovery. How do you intend to finish, and or "get out of Dodge."

PS to him still Healzing after the bashing. Lancasters flew oprationaly in 1942, check out the first date for b-17's and take the sunglasses OFF.
 
I agree about the feasability of Sealion but I want to point out that the comparison with Overlord is a bit misplaced. The comparison only goes so far.

Comparing it with the invasion of Norway is not accurate either but it's worth mentioning.

Of course it depends on what time we're talking about: an early Seelöwe cannot be compared with a late one when British defences were organized.

Kris
 
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