Since this is an international forum,any concern about whats going on in the Ukraine?
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Well, that has to be at least a little scarier than a stern response from the UN!Nobody believes that though.
We finally have a NATO response. It has announced 'a review of all cooperation' with the Russian Federation. I bet that's got Putin worried. There's nothing like a review of policy to put the wind up the other side
Cheers
Steve
If Putin isn't careful, the response from the UN may upgrade from stern to sincere!
buffnut453
Captain
Nobody believes that though.
We finally have a NATO response. It has announced 'a review of all cooperation' with the Russian Federation. I bet that's got Putin worried. There's nothing like a review of policy to put the wind up the other side
Cheers
Steve
Next thing you know, we'll undertake an end-to-end audit of paper clips and threaten to run off with the stapler. That'll learn 'em!
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
I'm really sorry for the people of Ukraine and Crimea regardless of their ethnicity. Common people are always the ones who suffer the most. I've seen that first hand in my own country not so long ago. However, I must say this much - western powers should have known that forcibly taking a part of territory from a sovereign country will turn on them like boomerang sooner or later. (I'm talking about western supported so called "independence" of Kosovo from Serbia.) I'm afraid we'll see more of this in the future.
Judge not, lest you be judged by the standards yourself apply.
Judge not, lest you be judged by the standards yourself apply.
Yep, Kerry saying "You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pretext" is a classic boomerang and true to form it came straight back and hit him in the face. Again, I doubt that Putin could believe his luck.
Western politicians are also describing the Russian action in the Ukraine as a 'violation of international law'. There are echoes there of the UN General Assembly calling the US action in Grenada 'a flagrant violation of international law'.
Pots and kettles need to be wary when calling each other black
Cheers
Steve
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fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
In the next 6 months a bankrupt Ukraine will default on its debts there will be chaos and the Russians will step in to take control and impose order. Within a year a new govt will be in place and Russia will own the Ukraine whatever flag flies in Kiev. Next will be Transnistria then probably Georgia across the former Soviet Union (Tsarist Empire) people must be wondering if history is going into reverse.
The West thinks it won the Cold War but it didnt that was just an inter bellum Cold War 2.0 is going to be coming soon and the US/Europe has neither the money nor the will to spend it. All the while China sits, watches and plays the long game.
The West thinks it won the Cold War but it didnt that was just an inter bellum Cold War 2.0 is going to be coming soon and the US/Europe has neither the money nor the will to spend it. All the while China sits, watches and plays the long game.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Very sad .... very true, I'm afraid. What would Finland do in a similar situation, I ask myself. I believe the Finns would not get their country into that state of indebtedness ... which is a fateful weakness for any country ... especially a country so compromised by geopolitics and economic/energy integration with its predatory neighbor .... Europe and America's statesmen and women are being schooled out behind the woodshed by Putin ... and all will have to wear this humiliation.
When I chat with my 25 year-old ex-Leningrader service tech at Mr. Lube while he's servicing the Jeep I ask how he likes Canada. He shrugs and smiles cynically and replies "young kids in Canada just want to smoke dope and play video games" ... and I'm afraid he's right in large part .... We invent things to be afraid of .... climate change, polar bear extinction, poison CO2 levels, conspiracy theories, etc. etc. and yet are uneducated and naive to our peril about the real dangers in the world ..... for instance: debt and addiction aren't lifestyle choices .. they are life or death choices.
When I chat with my 25 year-old ex-Leningrader service tech at Mr. Lube while he's servicing the Jeep I ask how he likes Canada. He shrugs and smiles cynically and replies "young kids in Canada just want to smoke dope and play video games" ... and I'm afraid he's right in large part .... We invent things to be afraid of .... climate change, polar bear extinction, poison CO2 levels, conspiracy theories, etc. etc. and yet are uneducated and naive to our peril about the real dangers in the world ..... for instance: debt and addiction aren't lifestyle choices .. they are life or death choices.
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
Money, oil, power.
Power, oil, money.
Oil, money, power.
There are no politics, just the same old, same old things.
The big impose on the small.
Call it what you will,... It is the same old thing.
And the world continues to turn....
Power, oil, money.
Oil, money, power.
There are no politics, just the same old, same old things.
The big impose on the small.
Call it what you will,... It is the same old thing.
And the world continues to turn....
razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Just posted this on my Facebook page via Eric...
"Putin should come to realize that, whatever his grievances, a policy of military impositions would produce another Cold War. For its part, the United States needs to avoid treating Russia as an aberrant to be patiently taught rules of conduct established by Washington. Putin is a serious strategist — on the premises of Russian history. Understanding U.S. values and psychology are not his strong suits. Nor has understanding Russian history and psychology been a strong point of U.S. policymakers."
Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end - The Washington Post
"Putin should come to realize that, whatever his grievances, a policy of military impositions would produce another Cold War. For its part, the United States needs to avoid treating Russia as an aberrant to be patiently taught rules of conduct established by Washington. Putin is a serious strategist — on the premises of Russian history. Understanding U.S. values and psychology are not his strong suits. Nor has understanding Russian history and psychology been a strong point of U.S. policymakers."
Henry Kissinger: To settle the Ukraine crisis, start at the end - The Washington Post
razor1uk
Staff Sergeant
I'd say Kissinger has hit the nail with that article. I also think that the belligerent on all sides inside and outside of Ukraine don't want a middleway policy - why can't they be allowed to have links to both east and west to be the 'trader' between EU CIS markets!?
[quote="Henry A. Kissinger was secretary of state from 1973 to 1977 -end of article]
...Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:
1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.
2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.
3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland.
That (Finland/Suomi) nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.
4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea's relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea.
Ukraine should reinforce Crimea's autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.
These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.[/quote]
[quote="Henry A. Kissinger was secretary of state from 1973 to 1977 -end of article]
...Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:
1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.
2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.
3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland.
That (Finland/Suomi) nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.
4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea's relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea.
Ukraine should reinforce Crimea's autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.
These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.[/quote]
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vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I could see this pushing the Ukraine into wanting to join NATO.
With Putin threating to nationalize US Companies, I'm sure the potential investments into the country are going to take a hit at least in the short term.
With Putin threating to nationalize US Companies, I'm sure the potential investments into the country are going to take a hit at least in the short term.
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
There is no way that this is not a political subject, So let me shut this down.
Putin and the Russian mindset do not understand how the U.S. and the NATO view things, and the U.S. and NATO do not understand how Russians view things.
We are working at cross purposes here.
Putin and the Russian mindset do not understand how the U.S. and the NATO view things, and the U.S. and NATO do not understand how Russians view things.
We are working at cross purposes here.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Can't we send Dennis Rodman over to solve everything? I think he is out of rehab now.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I thought he was over in North Korea hangin' with his home-biscuit Kim Jong
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Not our fight. End of story.
I read recently that Russia was going to commemorate 100 years since the outbreak of the Great War with a full scale re-enactment...
This is something I posted on another forum, someone had mentioned the West's inactivity in Syria and now the Ukraine:
The difference between Putin and Obama is a matter of maturity. Putin is behaving like a spoilt child and Obama a stern adult. The Russians behave in extremes; their entire history is littered with examples of proving their 'toughness', like school-yard bullies. Like minded idiots like George Dubya would be marching into Syria as we speak, creating even more havoc and a humanitarian crisis of unbelieveable proportions in the Middle East - again, not to mention what the destabilisation of the Assad regime will do; more civil war, more deaths, more Al Qaeda support in that region - it doesn't stop once Assad goes, the killing continues as each of the factions whose common enemy has been defeated out-kill each other for supremacy. Its a matter of "Do you want the Aladeen news or the Aladeen news?" Its not good either way, so Assad has to stay for the time being and the West has to impose economic sanctions against Russia. That's all it can do.
I read an analysts view of the crisis in the Ukraine; he claimed that the Ukrainian government should let Russia have the Crimea and its pro Russian population can be isolated from the Ukraine that will enjoy the benefits of aligning itself with Western Europe, including financial support for its ailing economy and direct trade with Europe and by extension, the rest of the world. After a few years, the Crimea, part of an economically sick Russia will look over at their better-off cousins in the rest of the Ukraine and get impatient with their situation, which might lead them to change their minds as to whom they align themselves with.
Hell, put a wall down the middle and see how many Crimeans decide to 'escape to the West'. One fact that is often overlooked about East and West Germany, between the end of WW2 and 1989, when the Berlin wall came down, the movement of East Germans to the West was the greatest single migration of humans in modern history; some four million plus people changed allegiances in that time for a better, less restrictive life.
This is something I posted on another forum, someone had mentioned the West's inactivity in Syria and now the Ukraine:
The difference between Putin and Obama is a matter of maturity. Putin is behaving like a spoilt child and Obama a stern adult. The Russians behave in extremes; their entire history is littered with examples of proving their 'toughness', like school-yard bullies. Like minded idiots like George Dubya would be marching into Syria as we speak, creating even more havoc and a humanitarian crisis of unbelieveable proportions in the Middle East - again, not to mention what the destabilisation of the Assad regime will do; more civil war, more deaths, more Al Qaeda support in that region - it doesn't stop once Assad goes, the killing continues as each of the factions whose common enemy has been defeated out-kill each other for supremacy. Its a matter of "Do you want the Aladeen news or the Aladeen news?" Its not good either way, so Assad has to stay for the time being and the West has to impose economic sanctions against Russia. That's all it can do.
I read an analysts view of the crisis in the Ukraine; he claimed that the Ukrainian government should let Russia have the Crimea and its pro Russian population can be isolated from the Ukraine that will enjoy the benefits of aligning itself with Western Europe, including financial support for its ailing economy and direct trade with Europe and by extension, the rest of the world. After a few years, the Crimea, part of an economically sick Russia will look over at their better-off cousins in the rest of the Ukraine and get impatient with their situation, which might lead them to change their minds as to whom they align themselves with.
Hell, put a wall down the middle and see how many Crimeans decide to 'escape to the West'. One fact that is often overlooked about East and West Germany, between the end of WW2 and 1989, when the Berlin wall came down, the movement of East Germans to the West was the greatest single migration of humans in modern history; some four million plus people changed allegiances in that time for a better, less restrictive life.
parsifal
Colonel
it is a political thread, of sorts, but for once we are not at each others throats on political lines.
Surprisingly...
