evangilder
"Shooter"
Nice pic, Davidicus!
Which is better: P-47 or Fw-190?
- Thread starter mosquitoman
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FLYBOYJ said:
Well it wouldnt last a dogfight with the D-9 for long, but it could chicken out almost whenever it wanted.
At high alt I think the D-9 and -47N would be about equal in an overall point of view, but the -47N would be alot faster. At low alt the -47N better not get suckered into a close fight with the D-9, as its almost entirely doomed to fail. The D-9 still has all its previus advantages, and will be almost impossible to beat at low-med alt.
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Btw, very nice pic DAVID ! Color photo's of a -47 are always nice 8)
Nonskimmer
Captain
I agree. Great pic, and a couple of great links. 
Thanks DAVIDICUS.
Thanks DAVIDICUS.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Seeing how this is all theoretical, I agree with Soren on all accounts.....
Now.... Armament... While Ill compromise and say I love the 8x .50's, what do u think the Dora would have been able to do to the -47 if it had machine guns instead of cannon....
Tickle its belly????
I think that one comes down to simple personal choice..... 20mm explosives or sheer volume of .50 lead....
Now.... Armament... While Ill compromise and say I love the 8x .50's, what do u think the Dora would have been able to do to the -47 if it had machine guns instead of cannon....
Tickle its belly????
I think that one comes down to simple personal choice..... 20mm explosives or sheer volume of .50 lead....
Erich
the old Sage
disagree if you will but every German pilot I have interviewed states they had the superior ammo and guns but not the A/C.
heck let's not go there ....
heck let's not go there ....
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I agree erich... The ones I have talked to, and have read about, all thought the same thing....
Until the Dora and the -152H and C came out.... But as we all know, too little too late......
Erich said:
What I most commonly hear from vets, is that it wasnt the A/C's quality or maneuverability that was the problem, but the high alt performance.
Insufficient Pilot training, fuel shortages, and low high alt performance were the main problems. The maneuverability and ammunition of the "fighters" was excellent.
This is what I most commonly get ot hear from "Fighter-pilots" atleast. I've never heard them complain about A/C ammunition or maneuverability as a problem.
The M3's appear to have been installed on the P-47N's stationed on LeShima.
Those M3's afforded an extra 350rpm over the M2's. (M3 - 1,200rpm / M2 - 850rpm using estimates at the high end)
P-51's had no problem tearing up their adversaries with six M2's throwing just 85 rounds per second.
A P-47N outfitted with M3's could throw 160 rounds per second.
Those M3's afforded an extra 350rpm over the M2's. (M3 - 1,200rpm / M2 - 850rpm using estimates at the high end)
P-51's had no problem tearing up their adversaries with six M2's throwing just 85 rounds per second.
A P-47N outfitted with M3's could throw 160 rounds per second.
DAVIDICUS said:The M3's appear to have been installed on the P-47N's stationed on LeShima.
Those M3's afforded an extra 350rpm over the M2's. (M3 - 1,200rpm / M2 - 850rpm using estimates at the high end)
P-51's had no problem tearing up their adversaries with six M2's throwing just 85 rounds per second.
A P-47N outfitted with M3's could throw 160 rounds per second.
Enough to cut any axis fighter to pieces. However I would still prefer D-9's armament if up against a -47 ! I'm confident that big bird could take a hell of alot of .50's !
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I don't know Soren, wasn't the D-9s tail wood? I hate to have 50s going through my empannage! (What the hell did I just say?)
Erich
the old Sage
no it was made of metal and there was some consideration on the last batch to use wood. The TA 152 was in the same boat with materials. The 109K-4's tailsection was of wood though
the D-9 was mince meat in front of .50's, but in numerous older postings I have given credence to the firepower of 2cm and 3cm Minen Geschoss
the D-9 was mince meat in front of .50's, but in numerous older postings I have given credence to the firepower of 2cm and 3cm Minen Geschoss
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
0.50 cal. M3 are no common equippment at the ETO in general. A few have been in PTO I think, but I don´t even know of a single ETO 0.50 M3 equipped plane (maybe there are). And the 0.50 M2 is not that impressive, anyway the HE rounds of 20mm MG 151/20 and 30mm MK 108 are more than enough to deal with a P-47. They are less probable to hit but less hits are needed to ensure destruction, also. Who wins?
If you want to initiate a "what if" with the 0.50 M3, than we have some MG213B/20 mm, also and this can be regarded as the ultimative air to air gun.
Anyway, the P-47N has a considerable speed advantage over the D-9 and can hold it´s top speed for a longer time.
This works positively for the energy managemant of the P-47N.
If you want to initiate a "what if" with the 0.50 M3, than we have some MG213B/20 mm, also and this can be regarded as the ultimative air to air gun.
Anyway, the P-47N has a considerable speed advantage over the D-9 and can hold it´s top speed for a longer time.
This works positively for the energy managemant of the P-47N.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
OH - ok
Erich
the old Sage
yes HE 13mm would do some damage to the P-47.
as I said earlier I am rather doubtful any P-47 ran up against the Dora, the topic should read the Jug bubble or razorback type against the Fw 190A variants
as I said earlier I am rather doubtful any P-47 ran up against the Dora, the topic should read the Jug bubble or razorback type against the Fw 190A variants
I have read that the D-9 could only muster 397mph at 32,000ft. (In fact, the source I read states that its speed decreased from a high of 426mph at 21,650ft [http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/fw190d.html]) If that is the case, I think the P-47N could easily handle the D-9 at higher altitudes. The P-47N could do 467mph at 32,000ft.
I have never been able to find climb rate information on the P-47N. I have seen climb figures for the P-47M which had the same souped up power plant as the "N" model.
From: http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html
Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). Reportedly, the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration.
Of course, the "M" model was lighter. Additionally, however, I don't know how the P-47N's new and larger wing might have influenced its ability to climb.
I have never been able to find climb rate information on the P-47N. I have seen climb figures for the P-47M which had the same souped up power plant as the "N" model.
From: http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/quarters/9485/P-47M.html
Climb, at max. gross weight (including three 75 gallon drop tanks): 4.9 minutes to 15,000 feet at 2,600 rpm (1700 hp). Reportedly, the "M" could reach 20,000 feet in 5.7 minutes at military power (2,100 hp @ 2,800 rpm). 20,000 feet in 4.75 minutes in WEP (2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm). This is with full internal fuel and ammo. No external stores or drop tanks. In other words, normal load, clean configuration.
Of course, the "M" model was lighter. Additionally, however, I don't know how the P-47N's new and larger wing might have influenced its ability to climb.
