Who won Vietnam?!?

abhiginimav said:

No offence to any americans, but i think the USA should just not have got involved, i think the world police thing is getting to far, that goes for Britain and more economically developed european countries too. we should let countries sort it out between them. this is why were loosing men fighting for lost causes. Vietnam was just a waste of time, money, military, vehicles and lives. thoose who came back, havent got a life, because it had been stolen from fear and horrible experiences.
Sorry to hear that you went to Nam' Erich
i jus hope if i ever join the RAF when im old enough, i wont see any thing like that.

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I have to disagree with you. Let them sort it out themselves?

Have you seen mass graves? Have you seen them filled with bodies that were killed because they were Albanian, or Christian, or Muslim or Kurd, or Shiite? I have seen these mass graves first hand in Kosovo, Bosnia, and Iraq.

When do you tell them what is right and what is wrong, when do you stop the killing of innocent women and children?

Someone has to and the rest of the world is too damn chicken **** to do it.

I dont know about chicken, many nations like Australia are too small to offer anything other than token assistance. And its a bit disingenuous to suggest that the US is somehow solely interested in bringing freedom, all countries act according to their own interests and I have seen many graves of innocents who have been on the deliberate recieving end of the US`s efforts as well. There isnt a country on the map that cant happily justify why a particular slaughter is not there problem when its not in their interests to act.

But as critical as I am of some of the US`s actions that doesnt mean for a second if there has to be a single 'superpower' I would rather it was another power like a China or Russia. I think too many people who have legitimate grievances with your current administration go too far into the 'US is always wrong' mode, which then does almost justify to themselves genocides in preference to the US taking unilateral action.

As much as I know many Americans distrust the UN, perhaps we need to reframe it, as too many members are happy to see it toothless so that it doesnt interfere with their interests. remove the veto and make it a proper democratic institution, not one which reflects the power nations of 1945. The massacre at srebrenica happened because no country would give the UN troops there any mandate to do anything other than watch the slaughter.

Crow said:

I dont know about chicken, many nations like Australia are too small to offer anything other than token assistance.

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That is not what I meant by my post. What I meant was this. The US (and her allies) goes in and the world cries "Bad US, War Mongering fools!" Well the rest of the world can kiss my ass...

Crow said:

And its a bit disingenuous to suggest that the US is somehow solely interested in bringing freedom, all countries act according to their own interests

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Your right, we want to secure our freedom from those that wish to take it and hurt us because of our freedoms.

Crow said:

and I have seen many graves of innocents who have been on the deliberate recieving end of the US`s efforts as well.

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Please tell me where you have seen such a mass grave filled with innocent bodies killed by US soldiers. I was a US Soldier and served in combat and I guarantee you we have never caused mass genocide or killed innocents in mass ammounts just for the fricken hell of it.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

That is not what I meant by my post. What I meant was this. The US (and her allies) goes in and the world cries "Bad US, War Mongering fools!" Well the rest of the world can kiss my ass...

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I already said that many of those who have legitimate grievances with US foreign policy can go too far with criticising for unilateral action and end up justifying genocides rather than let the US act.

as for the world can kiss your ass, well thats really symptomatic of the contempt the US has shown for the rest of the world, including its allies. if you are happy enough for the US to act solely in its own interests then you really have nothing to complain about when other countries do the same and try to negate your influence.

Your right, we want to secure our freedom from those that wish to take it and hurt us because of our freedoms.

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right. what is so special about your freedoms?. There are dozens of countries that have every bit of the liberal secular democracy of the US. pretending everyone hates you just because of freedoms is just simplistic and allows you to not have to face up to the effects of your foregin policy. 'no they dont hate us because of our undermining of elected Governments that would damage our interests, its because we get public holidays and the vote'. did countries such as Guatemala wanted to hurt your 'freedoms'? or were they taught a lesson because a US corporation with strong ties to Eisenhower objected when its assets were nationalised for the good of its people?. plenty more examples if you care to look.

Please tell me where you have seen such a mass grave filled with innocent bodies killed by US soldiers. I was a US Soldier and served in combat and I guarantee you we have never caused mass genocide or killed innocents in mass ammounts just for the fricken hell of it.

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I didnt say genocide, but believe me, I could take you on a tour of villages in vietnam where I have seen the results of US troops actions. I was a soldier too, and I`ve seen it first hand on the ground. families raped and murdered, babies smashed in, 12yo girls raped and then have flares shoved up their vaginas and lit.., boys killed one by one with a bullet in the head because a village wouldnt hand over a supposed VC member etc. I`ve seen it all.

I didnt mean for this to turn into an attack on the US, believe me as I said earlier if there has to be a single superpower then I`m glad its the US. God knows what would happen if we got what some anti-US types want and the US was replaced by China or Russia. But some of the reasons given for the US acting as it does are naive and simplistic in the extreme, and reasons like 'they hate our freedom' really just gives your country a licence to do whatever it wants rather than weigh up the real effects of your policy.

flame away

no flame but maybe a reality check for you, the south Viets also followed up the US to perform it's mindless acts of barbarity on it's own people and cousins, the messages you proclaim are true enough, I was there. they were supplied with the same arms and ammo which you easily see whom would get the blame .....

Crow said:

as for the world can kiss your ass, well thats really symptomatic of the contempt the US has shown for the rest of the world, including its allies. if you are happy enough for the US to act solely in its own interests then you really have nothing to complain about when other countries do the same and try to negate your influence.

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No your right the world can kiss my ass. You know why I have an opinion. I have an opinion about my country and know one especially liberals from all over the world can change that opinion.

I am a very cultured man. I am an American but I was born and raised in Europe. I have seen more cultures than most people around this world. I respect other cultures and was raised to do so by my family. I have been all over Europe, Asia, Africa and the Middle East so dont try and explain to me how the US is regarded in other places. I have seen it first hand.

Second of all, I dont complain about other countries and the way they feel about the US because it is there right to feel the way they do. That however does not mean that I have to be a liberal and agree with them.

I am a free thinker and can believe in what I wish and think about what I wish.

crow said:

right. what is so special about your freedoms?.

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What is so special about my freedom? Who the hell are you? You want to know why they are special to me? Because they are granted to me by my country. I have fought for what I believe in and for the rights my country has given me and my county. That is why it is special to me.

crow said:

pretending everyone hates you just because of freedoms is just simplistic and allows you to not have to face up to the effects of your foregin policy.

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Excuse me? Again who the hell are you? When a low life piece of **** scum blow up innocent women and children it is a direct attack on my country and the freedoms of my country.

If you do not like my countries foriegn policies, then you can attack my government and my military but if you are nothing more than a coward as to attack innocents then you are attacking my freedoms and my right to be.

Period!

crow said:

'no they dont hate us because of our undermining of elected Governments that would damage our interests, its because we get public holidays and the vote'.

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Do not even start to put words in my mouth....

crow said:

I didnt say genocide, but believe me, I could take you on a tour of villages in vietnam where I have seen the results of US troops actions. I was a soldier too, and I`ve seen it first hand on the ground. families raped and murdered, babies smashed in, 12yo girls raped and then have flares shoved up their vaginas and lit.., boys killed one by one with a bullet in the head because a village wouldnt hand over a supposed VC member etc. I`ve seen it all.

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Do you have proof they were conducted by US Soldiers? Did you see it done with your own eyes?

Sure there are cases of US Soldiers doing what they should do. What they know is wrong. But the US never and never will commit mass murder on villages as policy.

Try another one, your arguement here does not work....

crow said:

I didnt mean for this to turn into an attack on the US,

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Then what is your agenda...

crow said:

But some of the reasons given for the US acting as it does are naive and simplistic in the extreme, and reasons like 'they hate our freedom' really just gives your country a licence to do whatever it wants rather than weigh up the real effects of your policy.

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When our women and children are safe from fear and worry about being killed by people who wish for us to live under the flag of Islam (and dont even tell me this is not true, I have lived among it, I have seen and heard and read what they wish) then our policy will change, but only when our people are safe.

Sorry Crow I am not a liberal....Your arguements dont work with me.

At the same time I am an adult who will not throw insults back when someone who does not know me calls me naive, watch your step Crow....

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I dont complain about other countries and the way they feel about the US because it is there right to feel the way they do.

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As you said Chris you have travelled the world, how do the average people in those countries honestly feel about the USA?

Depends on where you go I guess.

For the most part in Europe they are just not fond of the US policies but have no direct problems with Americans at all (atleast not on a personal level).

There are some that have stereotypes because the young GI who is away from home for the first time tends to act like an idiot (what I like to call the "bad American") in public and give the rest of the Americans a bad name.

From my experiences in places such as Africa, S. America, and Asia it depends on what the government is feeding to the people.

As for the Middle East (I spent about 14 months there and have also talked to many Islamic people here in Germany as well) it pretty much goes like this. They dont believe in our system and they hate us for being an ally of Isreal. They dont accept our beliefs ( we are not allowed to build a church in half of there countries but god forbid you tell them they cant build a mosque in yoru country). Basically they are only tollerant of there beliefs and hate us for ours.

There are plenty of people here who have actually spent time in the middle east like myself and they will agree with me.

Am I saying that all Islamic people are bad? No, I have met good ones too and there are Islamic countries that are pretty decent as well.

Im about to step into this bullsh!t conversation, but Ill wait till crow-boy replies...

Oh boy here it comes....

Crow said:

As much as I know many Americans distrust the UN, perhaps we need to reframe it, as too many members are happy to see it toothless so that it doesnt interfere with their interests. remove the veto and make it a proper democratic institution, not one which reflects the power nations of 1945. The massacre at srebrenica happened because no country would give the UN troops there any mandate to do anything other than watch the slaughter.

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Crow - You're right, Americans are not by and large fond of the UN. We don't want to hand over any of our sovereignty to a multi-national organization that does not have American interests at heart. The concept of the UN is essentially flawed - it's that disconnect between theory and the reality of how the world works. You're just not going to have an org like that will such radically diverse interests be a cohesive unit. I think that the UN is well on its way to proving its irrelevance in the world today.

Too many nations in the world are also perfectly as ease to stand by and watch mass genocide, because it's not "their problem." It might cost money and even lives, so they'll sit idly by and watch the thousands die.

deleted . good luck to you all.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I still think about the things that I have seen. My buddy still jumps when a car backfires and on New Years he sat huddled in his house because the noises from the fire works scared him.

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Yeah thats horrible to have to live that way and it never really passes either, i was stabbed in the chest when i was 19 by some random thug in downtown Toronto for no reason, so im paranoid to be outside of my house after dark, when you come inches from death you completely change

Hussars that is a total crapper ............

Chris no kidding, my eldest brother inlaw was a navy corp-man on the front lines in Nam and was nearly killed in by a trip-wired bomb explosion; every morning still his bedsheets show the sign of micronized shrapnel ......... with the loss of two finger tips and scarring on his chest, he still reacts - ducks even when fireworks are popped at 4th of July.

Lets face it my generation serving in Nam we will not get over it ever ........ we were never de-briefed when we got home, just given the word go make something of yourself

My brother left Vietnam in the spring of 1969 - he was shell shocked for at least 5 years and mentally affected by his experience for at least another 10. Had a hard time holding down a job.

Today there are so many programs for returning Iraqi soldiers, where the hell was the help when Vietnam Vets (who fought a more tenacious enemy) returned home?!?! It really pisses me off especially when I see some liberal politician who protested the Vietnam War saying "we need to help our veterans." I think you folks could name a few I'm speaking of!!!!

Interesting comments gentlemen. Met many a Vietnam Aussie Veteran. Of course they have my respect because that is the way i was raised by my father and mother. particularly my father who was a returned veteran himself. he had a saying you don't know what it is like unless you have been shot at and in our family respect was given because these men and women deserved that respect at all times. by the way gentlemen the bad dreams the nervous palsy etc etc were also in WW2 veterans. i know because my father had nightmares for years over his war time experiences. i am not going to get into the debate was vietnam necassary or not but we in the Commonwealth must remember that we were involved not only in Vietnam but Britians Vietnam in Malaya as well. it was a different political atmosphere in those days with the domino theory in place during the cold war days. not only in Europe but in the asian region during those times. korea Vietnam and Malaya were the prime examples. atrocities did take place on both sides during Vietnam and i suspect was the same in Korea and Malaya but one must remember atroscities do occur as much as we disavow them and criminal acts do and will occur for which there is no excuse if committed by our own servicemen and allies. 2 wrongs do not make it right as the old saying goes. but if we dwell on this if innocents fill graves and war is a crime against humanity and we use Vietnam or Korea or Malay as prime examples and even Iraq and Afghanistan as further proof. then we have to also use WW1 and WW2 as further examples of war against innocents and the filling of graves. unfortuantely we often forget what war does to populations and yes we demonize either side as i suspect its part of the propaganda part of the war we wage. i have met many a muslim as well gentlemen, most just want to just live in peace and live and raise their kids as they see fit. and i have no problem with that at all. all power to them if that is what they want to do that is fine. i just have a problem with the radicals who usurp the religion of islam for their own agenda whether it be political or religious feavour. as an islamic mate of mine is fond of saying Islam is a wonderful song just some have rotten singing voices and distort it horribley. but having said that i know many a christian who sings just as bad and i am possibley one of them as i am a christian as well. but i live in peace with my neighbours and practise my faith as i see fit to do so which is guarantteed due to democratic processes in my country but before some one brings out the old cants of what christians have done in the civilized world from the crusades down the the 100 year war in europe or the spanish inquistion etc go and have a good look into what islam has done. Islam didn't come with the peace and word of the koran as some may think it came with fire and sword but again many religious ideologies did the same. the truth be to the manner came from man not from god whether that god by allah or the christian god of peace but man alone bears responsibility for war. about time we started taking responsibilities for our own actions and what our governments do in our name for the people of different countries. you may not agree with what i have said that is your choice as free thinking individuals but i live by this i may not agree with what you think but i will defend your right to say it, and to me that is what democracy is all about and that is what the radicals seem to forget. the right to choose not only just a democratic way of thinking but in whom you worship in faith or if you choose not to worship in faith etc. but unfortunately Jesus Christ did say in the New Testaments that there will always be War there will always be Famine and Natural Disasters. never a truer words said. such is the lot of mankind on this world of ours

it is called the bi-product of man's sin ..........

Erich said:

it is called the bi-product of man's sin ..........

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i know erich and more shame on us for being like that. war and the history it represents fancinates me due to the fact it is based through out history and man's efforts to either wage war or try not to wage war. more often then not we wage war we disavow it say its savage and primative. yet how many wars has mankind waged since the time man first picked up a sharpened stick etc to atomic weapons chemical and biological. complex creatures aren't we. avow for peace yet readily go to war.

A bad peace is worse than war.

plan_D said:

A bad peace is worse than war.

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Except when this bad peace leads to a larger and more horrific war... Versailles might be the best example of this. Maybe a peace that allows certain lunatics in power in specific countries that seek to acquire nuclear weapons, and would likely have no fear in using said weapons. I'll go to war over peace to stop that.